Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[lklawson]

Not only that, but the world has changed. We're no longer sitting in seiza sipping tea with a tanto at our side nor are we walking around next to authority figures carrying katanas. Thus there's very little application for training that revolves around those scenarios outside of cultural preservation/appropriation, or simply living out a personal samurai fantasy.

And only weird people wear wrestling singlets or kirtka on the street. That doesn't mean wrestling and sambo don't "work."

 

[drop bear]

Not particularly. The same throws, chokes, and joint locks as before, 500 years ago or 5,000.


Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson
[Ankle Lock bottom row]

[Arm locks]

[Arm lock]

[Knee ride on back]

[Arm lock]

[Leg entanglement]

[Full Nelson]

[Front Headlock Choke]

There are thousands more, but I'm getting tired of embedding them.

Which kata? There are thousands of kata and hundreds of thousands of different claimed reasons for them. It's a stupid argument.

Nope. The same techniques that worked in day of yore still work and in the same circumstances as before. The only question is which of those circumstances likely to happen?

And yet 90% of submissions in MMA are.

• Rear Naked Choked
• Guillotine Choke
• Triangle Choke
• Arm Triangle Choke
• Arm Bar

Not leg entanglement or a knee ride on the back. Which won't work as we have a better understanding of how to gain mechanical advantage.

 

[lklawson]

Hi

I don’t agree with this 100%
1. As you say there are clearly old techniques that could be adapted for modern weapons / clothing. I think it would be interesting to train the modern adaptions primarily rather than the traditional ones. This is better than, for example, training sword disarms regularly and occasionally trying to figure out how the techniques change when a sword becomes a baseball bat

I don't materially disagree. I'm just stating that there is still a place for those techniques and gave an example.

2. There are quite a few movements that are foundational in some older systems, but maybe not so important for a modern context (& therefore shouldn’t be foundational any more) an example is the positioning to access (& prevent your opponent accessing) your swords. If you’re not walking around armed today then perhaps your core positioning and angling will change in order to be optimal

Maybe not to you but many of those techniques for preventing someone else from accessing your sword are similar, or sometime identical, to the Weapons Retention techniques used by armed police. So, while you may not have a particular use for a technique that prevents someone from snatching a weapon from your side, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a place.

3. The traditional schools do not do a good job of training against “modern” strikers and grapplers. For example The core attacking (uke) strikes used in the traditional schools are not the strikes you see in say kickboxing/boxing etc. I hear the argument that a punch is a punch, but I don’t buy it. The set up, timing, rhythm etc are very, very different and that’s a pretty important thing to train against

4. The chain of transmission in traditional systems is 100% reliant on this chain working perfectly. Unfortunately life doesn’t work like that and students miss details which are then not passed onto their students and so on. So it’s conceivable that some techniques are being taught now that have mistakes in them which need to be ironed out by testing under pressure

There's a huge discussion there. It's probably too big for this reply but I get it. I honestly think that a lot of it is because there are people who didn't understand the techniques but taught them anyway. My favorite example is the standard Karate-style "high block" and "middle block." I always believe that it was stupid and didn't "work" until I read Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting and realized that all those Karateka had been told the wrong thing. It's not a "chamber your limb, then block" as two movements, it's a "swat block, then riposte with a backfist."

For these kind of reasons I do feel that there are adaptions needed for the traditional systems to be optimal for today’s context

Well, yes and no. I mean, it's not as if the people way-back-when didn't have sticks and clubs to contend with. We just need to take it and find where it fits in our environment. It's not so much adaptation as just a recognition. Just like we don't see a whole ton of foot long, needle pointed, straight daggers attacking us in an icepick grip. Those old German deggen techniques still work just fine, we just might want to save those for later and study defense for attacks were are more likely to see today. I mean, does anyone think that a racecar driver doesn't know how to drive "on the street" because his competitive environment is "drive fast, turn left" or that turning left has no application when he's on surface streets?

We just need to apply the techniques and strategies which are appropriate for our circumstances at the time. Right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I think defending this concept that they got it right a hundred years ago. Supports the training module of some arts.

Where I am an it either works or it doesn't kind of guy.

And there is so much more nuance between a technique that works and one that doesn't even when they look similar.

Ippon seonagi

Ippon seonagi that works.

I've seen the classical seo work many times. Made it work myself. Heck, I saw it work a few times just last night.

Oh, and on that second clip, the first throw was Morote Seonage, not Ippon.

 

[Hanzou]

And only weird people wear wrestling singlets or kirtka on the street. That doesn't mean wrestling and sambo don't "work."

It's not how they're dressed, it's what they're doing. A double leg takedown in a singlet is far more practical than learning a naginata kata in a kimino and hakama.

 

[lklawson]

And yet 90% of submissions in MMA are.

• Rear Naked Choked
• Guillotine Choke
• Triangle Choke
• Arm Triangle Choke
• Arm Bar

Not leg entanglement or a knee ride on the back. Which won't work as we have a better understanding of how to gain mechanical advantage.

The last image was a Guillotine Choke. Did you not actually pay attention before you hit reply?

 

[dunc]

I don't materially disagree. I'm just stating that there is still a place for those techniques and gave an example.

Maybe not to you but many of those techniques for preventing someone else from accessing your sword are similar, or sometime identical, to the Weapons Retention techniques used by armed police. So, while you may not have a particular use for a technique that prevents someone from snatching a weapon from your side, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a place.

There's a huge discussion there. It's probably too big for this reply but I get it. I honestly think that a lot of it is because there are people who didn't understand the techniques but taught them anyway. My favorite example is the standard Karate-style "high block" and "middle block." I always believe that it was stupid and didn't "work" until I read Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting and realized that all those Karateka had been told the wrong thing. It's not a "chamber your limb, then block" as two movements, it's a "swat block, then riposte with a backfist."


Well, yes and no. I mean, it's not as if the people way-back-when didn't have sticks and clubs to contend with. We just need to take it and find where it fits in our environment. It's not so much adaptation as just a recognition. Just like we don't see a whole ton of foot long, needle pointed, straight daggers attacking us in an icepick grip. Those old German deggen techniques still work just fine, we just might want to save those for later and study defense for attacks were are more likely to see today. I mean, does anyone think that a racecar driver doesn't know how to drive "on the street" because his competitive environment is "drive fast, turn left" or that turning left has no application when he's on surface streets?

We just need to apply the techniques and strategies which are appropriate for our circumstances at the time. Right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Probably we are in a similar place
For me it’s about
a) allowing/embracing the evolution of techniques that clearly took place before the Meiji era
b) making sure that training time is optimised for the desired outcome (eg self defence techniques for today’s environment vs preserving lessons from the past unchanged)
c) being competent when dealing with someone from other styles

 

[lklawson]

It's not how they're dressed, it's what they're doing. A double leg takedown in a singlet is far more practical than learning a naginata kata in a kimino and hakama.

Practical for what?

That's my point. The naginata stuff still "works." It's just that you're a ton less likely to see a circumstance where that's needed right now. So if you're interested primarily is self defense, maybe put off the naginata stuff for later, after you've got the most likely attacks covered.

 

[Hanzou]

Practical for what?

Practical for someone trying to take someone else off their feet. Wasn't that why it was banned from Judo, because it was too simple and too effective?

That's my point. The naginata stuff still "works." It's just that you're a ton less likely to see a circumstance where that's needed right now. So if you're interested primarily is self defense, maybe put off the naginata stuff for later, after you've got the most likely attacks covered.

It "works" in the sense that swinging a bladed spear will cut someone you swing it at. The problem is that the likelihood of you encountering someone wielding a Naginata, you having a Naginata on your person when someone attacks, or you being able to use a Naginata effectively against an assailant makes its usefulness pretty close to zero,

 

[lklawson]

Practical for someone trying to take someone else off their feet. Wasn't that why it was banned from Judo, because it was too simple and too effective?

That wasn't the question nor the context. The question isn't "why was the double supposedly banned from Judo Shia," the question was "practical in what context; what makes you think that naginata is not practical?" This is pretty obvious and if you didn't get it then you've just got an ax to grind.

It "works" in the sense that swinging a bladed spear will cut someone you swing it at.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know much about "swinging" a polearm.

The problem is that the likelihood of you encountering someone wielding a Naginata, you having a Naginata on your person when someone attacks, or you being able to use a Naginata effectively against an assailant makes its usefulness pretty close to zero,

Shocking! If only someone had said that in the post you were replying to but apparently misunderstanding! You can be honest. It's deliberate at this point, isn't it.

 

[Hanzou]

That wasn't the question nor the context. The question isn't "why was the double supposedly banned from Judo Shia," the question was "practical in what context; what makes you think that naginata is not practical?" This is pretty obvious and if you didn't get it then you've just got an ax to grind.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know much about "swinging" a polearm.


Shocking! If only someone had said that in the post you were replying to but apparently misunderstanding! You can be honest. It's deliberate at this point, isn't it.

Your question was "What makes the DLT practical". I said quite simply; "It's practical for someone trying to take someone else off their feet". I used the Judo ban as an example for how practical it is, because a martial art that specializes in takedowns and throws had to ban it because it was neutralizing a large amount of their techniques in competition. If you wish, we can make this even simpler in the fact that you can use the DLT in a variety of situations and contexts, which makes it a highly effective and practical technique.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have a Naginata, which is highly impractical and frankly has very little value in terms of self defense or fighting. Which of course makes sense, since it was designed for medieval warfare in an open battlefield, not for inside a car, a subway, an apartment, or a city street.

 

[lklawson]

Your question was "What makes the DLT practical"

No, it wasn't. I told you what the question was and you are ignoring it. Again. This is a pattern for you.

 

[Hanzou]

The last image was a Guillotine Choke. Did you not actually pay attention before you hit reply?

If that hand and elbow placement is accurate, that isn't a guillotine choke.

No, it wasn't. I told you what the question was and you are ignoring it. Again. This is a pattern for you.

Your question:

[DLT] Is practical for what?

My answer:
To take someone off their feet and dump them on the ground.

Where am I ignoring your question?

 

[lklawson]

If that hand and elbow placement is accurate, that isn't a guillotine choke.

Just like the dude's 16" waist, and his stick-figure bird ankles, and his too-short forearm are obviously intended to be anatomically correct? The way they drew artwork for this is different from what you think you know. It's not supposed to be photo-realistic. Based on the translations I've read, this is either a choke, a neck-crank, or both.

 

[Hanzou]

Just like the dude's 16" waist, and his stick-figure bird ankles, and his too-short forearm are obviously intended to be anatomically correct? The way they drew artwork for this is different from what you think you know. It's not supposed to be photo-realistic. Based on the translations I've read, this is either a choke, a neck-crank, or both.

Or simply a headlock, because you aren't choking anything with your hand and elbow in that position. I take it that this is an instructional manual? If the goal was to teach to choke someone, there's going to be a lot of disappointed people.

I'll also add that based on those illustrations you posted, we've definitely gotten way better at grappling over the last few hundred years. Some of that stuff in those illustrations would be classified as "crappling" because it would be incredibly easy to roll out of or counter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not until they know me by name.

You'll need to leave a bigger tip.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You also have the possibility of someone coming in from the outside and best everyone.

Because concepts like an open mat allow for that.

So say Lachlan guiles rolls up to the class one day on his holidays or something and leg locks everyone in the room. He would be given that opportunity to do so.

Because it isn't that big a deal

I love that idea. I haven't been able to do open-mat times at any of the places I've taught. I want to, though I doubt I'd get many takers with a small program. Just not as interesting for the visitor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is silly.

Our understanding has increased. So the techniques have changed.

This is predominantly why things like kata sort of look a bit off.

I think what he was saying is it all (if it ever worked) still works. It's a matter of figuring out which work well enough and in enough situations to focus on those. And that does change over time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does Japanese jujitsu do an open mat?

Basically Lachlan guiles would roll up to JJJ class and never leglock anyone. And that class would suffer for it.

That would be a per-school decision. JJJ isn't even a single style, but a family of styles.

 

[Hanzou]

I think what he was saying is it all (if it ever worked) still works. It's a matter of figuring out which work well enough and in enough situations to focus on those. And that does change over time.

I think the portion in parenthesis really needs to be bolded. Some of the stuff passed down in the old days was complete bunk and never properly vetted or tested. Hence why I think our reverence for certain "relic" techniques and belief in their efficacy is misplaced.