Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Steve]

OK. So I've done it three times with real knives. 100% success. OK, I did lose an eye once, but I survived. I count that as a win. I don't know how many times in practice, and I sure don't have a record of what percentage succeeded, but certainly I succeed more often than not.



I'm not as stringent as you. I'd give you credit for being a stripper guy.

I've had knives pulled on me more than three times. But I wouldn't consider myself a knife expert, and I'd never consider myself a self defense expert.

 

[Steve]

Ok. Name one JJJ school that holds the equivalent of an open mat.

You can have the entire family of schools if you want.

Conversely, the family of grappling that includes BJJ, judo, sambo, wrestling... can you name one that doesn't hold the equivalent of an open mat? I can't think of one.

 

[drop bear]

I've been getting into archery this last few months, so I'm going to use an analogy from that domain.

If you want a bow to hunt deer and bring home meat for your family, then from a strictly functional standpoint a modern compound bow is the way to go. These bows can produce reliable precision accuracy and killing power with less training time than any other bow in the history of archery. This would explain why (in the U.S. at least) these bows are generally the most popular especially among hunters.

On the other hand, there are still people out there who can hand knap flint arrowheads and build simple bows and arrows with nothing more than hand tools and materials they find in the forest. Personally, I think that's really cool. I think the world is a little richer because that kind of cultural knowledge has been preserved. Are these bows and arrows the most effective tool currently available for hunting food? Nah, but that's not really the point. Heck, for most of us the easiest way to get meat is to go to the supermarket.

I wanted to have a think a bit and then touch on this idea.

It is not the concept of outlier methods that I am against. But this weird drop off a ledge in to nothing when it comes to the end result.

So here is some guys making a pool by hand. And it is not as practical as a modern pool.

But it is still a pool. It still has visible worth.

 

[drop bear]

Conversely, the family of grappling that includes BJJ, judo, sambo, wrestling... can you name one that doesn't hold the equivalent of an open mat? I can't think of one.

Everyone in my area accommodates martial arts tourism.

We have a circus in town at the moment and there are a couple of blue belts there that turn up and train. And one of them is a killer because he is an acrobat and I assume he never grades.

So he comes in and schools the rest of us blue belts.

But there is no issue as far as image or making use look bad or anything.

 

[Hanzou]

As opposed to traditional Jujutsu, which is demonstrated/marketed through... what exactly?

Legends and folklore from feudal Japan.....

Nevermind that many of these surviving Jujutsu styles were created during the Edo period where there was little to no warfare taking place, so you just had people teaching watered down JJJ from earlier periods, and other people creating their own JJJ with no means of testing its effectiveness. Keep watering it down through the centuries and you have a lot of the classical JJ being taught today.

 

[drop bear]

I wanted to have a think a bit and then touch on this idea.

It is not the concept of outlier methods that I am against. But this weird drop off a ledge in to nothing when it comes to the end result.

So here is some guys making a pool by hand. And it is not as practical as a modern pool.

But it is still a pool. It still has visible worth.

And possibly why BJJ won't take over Medieval knight fighting.

Because there is a tangible end result.

 

[Hanzou]

Classical Japanese Jujitsu should consider going this route. There's zero difference.

 

[Buka]

My impression is that BJJ in Brazil is like Boxing in America, a sport that largely attracts kids who are at risk, poor, and are looking for something that will help them navigate growing up in a tough place. I think casually suggesting it's for punks and gang members because some random exchange student said so is pretty crappy... along the lines of suggesting that boxing is only for punks and gang members because some kid from an upper middle class neighborhood sadi so. I'd wager your Brazilian exchange student didn't come from the favela, and I'd guess he has no idea what he's talking about.

When I lived in Boston I met a lot of people from Brazil. A very few of the guys had any experience with BJJ, some had a passing knowledge.

But here it’s a completely different story, especially in the winter. Brazillians come here to surf. And most of them roll. I talk to them at the airport all the time. I can usually spot them right off, too, they have the look.

Met a lot of really nice folks.

And the women are very pretty. I think they must grow on trees there or something.

 

[Steve]

Classical Japanese Jujitsu should consider going this route. There's zero difference.

What's the difference between Japanese Jujutsu today and Japanese Jujutsu in medieval Japan? The battlefield. It's like taking the kids to plymouth rock to see how the puritans "lived."

 

[Hanzou]

What's the difference between Japanese Jujutsu today and Japanese Jujutsu in medieval Japan? The battlefield. It's like taking the kids to plymouth rock to see how the puritans "lived."

Should we be concerned that everyone in this pic is a white guy?

Again, if you're Japanese, this is your history and culture, so whatever. However, if you're not Japanese, this isn't your history/culture, so why are you engaged in it to this extent?

 

[Steve]

Should we be concerned that everyone in this pic is a white guy?

Again, if you're Japanese, this is your history and culture, so whatever. However, if you're not Japanese, this isn't your history/culture, so why are you engaged in it to this extent?

Well, just to be clear, I think folks need to follow their passions. I have always been a misfit and a nerd, and have a genuine soft spot for misfits and nerds. I roast coffee, make soap, am learning to make pottery, play tabletop RPGs with my friends and can tick off most of the "nerd" stereotypes. And my wife has the rest covered (she was a "mathlete" for Pete's sake). Point is, if you want to train in traditional Japanese martial arts, knock yourself out. If you want to train in a fake or ineffective brand of martial arts because it's cool looking, go for it. If you want to pretend you're a ninja or actually participate in LARP, have a blast. I won't judge you if you don't judge me.

But if you're doing something like the above and think you're ACTUALLY learning to fight... or if you're training as a ninja in the land down under, and ACTUALLY think you're a self defense expert... or if you're LARPing and ACTUALLY think that elves, fairies, and other fae folk live among us in secret... you're deluding yourself, and that's bad. If you've managed to convince other people that you can teach them these things based on imaginary expertise, you are now doing harm to others, and that's a problem. And to be clear, I've encountered each of those three, along with a guy who thought that the Federation of Planets (the Star Trek fan club) would eventually evolve into the governing body of the future.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've had knives pulled on me more than three times. But I wouldn't consider myself a knife expert, and I'd never consider myself a self defense expert.

I don't think I ever said I was either of those things. I just tried to find out what magic number makes someone "experienced" according to Drop Bear.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You didn't ask me,

That's ok, it's a public post, so anyone can respond.

but I'd answer one time is experience. The real questions are how many times before you are "experienced", and how many times before you are an expert?

Sure. But the original post I responded to asked 'who has experience with weapons" (paraphrased from memory - I don't think I've messed up the question). So how many times before you're an expert?

 

[Steve]

I don't think I ever said I was either of those things. I just tried to find out what magic number makes someone "experienced" according to Drop Bear.

Well, then we agree it's more than three.

 

[Steve]

That's ok, it's a public post, so anyone can respond.



Sure. But the original post I responded to asked 'who has experience with weapons" (paraphrased from memory - I don't think I've messed up the question). So how many times before you're an expert?

Well, that's the question for you. What is the magic number? I mean, Chris presents himself as a self defense expert and you guys indulge him as an expert. I don't think he's had even the experience you and I have, and we both agree we aren't experts. It's a real head scratcher.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, then we agree it's more than three.

Is it? Thing is, I'm not really sure there is a magic number.

Well, that's the question for you. What is the magic number? I mean, Chris presents himself as a self defense expert and you guys indulge him as an expert. I don't think he's had even the experience you and I have, and we both agree we aren't experts. It's a real head scratcher.

Who is "you guys"? I don't believe I've ever expressed any sort of opinion on Chris' self defense competence. I do think he's very knowledgeable about the history and legends of the Koryu arts, but honestly I'm unlikely to have an opinion about his ability to defend himself or teach someone else.

 

[drop bear]

Classical Japanese Jujitsu should consider going this route. There's zero difference.

Wot. Actual fighting?

 

[drop bear]

Should we be concerned that everyone in this pic is a white guy?

Again, if you're Japanese, this is your history and culture, so whatever. However, if you're not Japanese, this isn't your history/culture, so why are you engaged in it to this extent?

I think you can do the same thing with a photo from a hatsumi seminar.

 

[BrendanF]

Sure. But the original post I responded to asked 'who has experience with weapons" (paraphrased from memory - I don't think I've messed up the question). So how many times before you're an expert?

Sorry to quibble; in response to Hanzou stating that "the fighting application of these classical JJ arts is close to nil"

I asked "what experience fighting with weapons does he have to make such an assessment.

My point being that these arts derive from a time when there was a population engaging in combat with (and against) weapons regularly - this allows for an accumulation of information and technical know-how which cannot be replicated without such practical experience.

In other words, there are skills, techniques and knowledge which cannot be learned or understood simply by 'rolling' with someone in a bjj class. But it doesn't seem that the OP has any interest in any of that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry to quibble; in response to Hanzou stating that "the fighting application of these classical JJ arts is close to nil"

I asked "what experience fighting with weapons does he have to make such an assessment.

That's nice. But I didn't respond to you, so...
I responded to Drop Bear, who asked, essentially, 'who does?', the implication (as I read it) being that nobody had experience fighting with weapons.