Why You (Probably) Should Not Carry A Weapon

[Wing Woo Gar]

Agreed.


Arguing on the efficacy of a thing based on 'being afraid' is an appeal to machismo. I am afraid of volcanos, so I don't go into them. Fear is a very reasonable motivator.

But this gets back to stupid people. I believe most people are in fact astoundingly stupid. They base decisions that affect their own lives on things like how it makes them look to other people. Not wanting to be seen to be afraid motivates people to do the most amazingly dumb things, sometimes with firearms or other weapons. If the fear is based on reasonable danger that can be avoided, then avoiding it is the wise thing to do. And when the morons point and jeer and say you're just afraid, well good for them. I don't base my life's decisions on what other people think makes me seem less manly.

Getting back to the logical decision to limit access to a tool when the person in question has shown they will injure themselves or others with that tool, well, I have disagree with your statement. I can't cut myself with a knife I do not have. That's just a fact. If I'm prone to cutting myself whenever I have a knife, it is eminently logical to keep knives away from me. I didn't say YOU should not have a knife. I said that keeping tools away from me if I will only hurt myself with them makes perfect sense.

I think that fear is something we all have. It’s how we choose to deal with it. Im not a macho tough guy at all, I also don’t let fear guide my decisions. I won’t like other people making decisions for me based on what they presume I MIGHT do. Finally, I disagree with your statement that most people are stupid, instead, I think most people are living in, and being guided by their fears.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Police gun training could very easily be garbage though.

If it was fight training it would fall well short.

This is a valid point, because we have both a gun violence problem and a policing violence problem that overlap in a variety of ways.

 

[GojuTommy]

that 75% accuracy rate seems pretty consistent regardless of how much practice you have. Practice and training don’t seem to impact accuracy for police officers, for whom 25% accuracy is on the high side. Expecting the average person to do as well or better seems very optimistic to me.

…police officers shoot once a year. I was friends with a SWAT cop, he said they shot twice a year maybe 3 times a year if they were lucky and had some left over budget.

Before the pandemic my gf and I hit the range a minimum of 4 times a year.

I have not seen any studies that prove/disprove a correlation between practice/annual range time and accuracy in real shootings.

If you have some I’d love to see them

 

[GojuTommy]

For the record, and I am very far from knowledgably on this topic, so I am not debating the rest, this does not indicate that training does not work. It indicates that the specific training they provided police officers worked. That could be a result of
1) Training is not useful to increase accuracy rates. This seems unlikely to me, as most things can be improved by training.

2) This particular training does not do a good job. This seems likely to me, as if the training is done in a range, and the studies are about effectiveness in the field, there's plenty of space for issues. Kinda like if someone punches the air, or a pad, and only does that, then goes into a fight, their ability will be lacking. That doesn't mean they can't be trained, but that the training they had was missing a crucial component (a resisting partner).

3) The police officers have no motivation to try hard in the training. This seems possible if there is no rewards/punishments for how they do. If that's the case, then no matter how good the training is, only the ones who have some internal motivation would actually improve from it.

3A) if the rewards/punishments are based on the range, you've got a mix of 2 and 3. People are motivated to train the unhelpful thing, rather than the helpful thing. From what my dad (LEO) has discussed with me, at least in his precinct (and 15 years ago) this was the case. They trained on the range, and would need to get a certain score on the range, or face disciplinary action of some sort. That means that their consequences were only related to fighting someone not resisting, in a low pressure situation, which is also what their training teaches.

So long-winded point short, training likely could help if it is focused on live pressure/resistance, AND the people participating have a reason to improve in shooting during live pressure/resistance. From what I'm aware of, and the studies I've read that say similar to your point, that is not the case. I'd be interested to see studies with those issues fixed.

Police training is 1 static range shoot per year.

That’s essentially like doing kata and expecting to be able to fight.

Police need force on force training. Wether that’s airsoft or simmunitions both are better than simple static range shooting.

 

[Steve]

I missed this - did mean that there are 466 million people who own guns in America, or misread that there are 466 million guns out there? Because if the first, and you mean the USA, then you should seriously question that source. Considering the population of the USA is right around 334 million people.

Sorry. That’s the estimated number of guns.

 

[Steve]

Regarding training, I wasn’t making any kind of value judgment on the quality of police training. I was pointing out that many gin owners have no training… it’s not required everywhere. And that the jury is out on whether any training (good, bad, or otherwise) makes any difference.

 

[HighKick]

Police training is 1 static range shoot per year.

That’s essentially like doing kata and expecting to be able to fight.

Police need force on force training. Wether that’s airsoft or simmunitions both are better than simple static range shooting.

That is just not true. There is much, much more required at the I am familiar with. Static shooting equates to 60% of annual certification.

 

[drop bear]

Regarding training, I wasn’t making any kind of value judgment on the quality of police training. I was pointing out that many gin owners have no training… it’s not required everywhere. And that the jury is out on whether any training (good, bad, or otherwise) makes any difference.

I have this whole thing that fight training should have fighting in it.

And am not suprised statistically the difference between trained and untrained isn't clear.

Otherwise that people don't have to be trained. And that those who are trained support that dynamic. You get what you get.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think that fear is something we all have. It’s how we choose to deal with it. Im not a macho tough guy at all, I also don’t let fear guide my decisions. I won’t like other people making decisions for me based on what they presume I MIGHT do. Finally, I disagree with your statement that most people are stupid, instead, I think most people are living in, and being guided by their fears.

Rational fear is my friend. I strive to avoid irrational fear, and to recognize the difference between them. Rational fear certainly does guide my actions, like choosing not to walk down certain alleys. Irrational fear, like bring hit by a falling meteorite, does not.

We disagree about people being mostly stupid. I have the evidence of 62 years experience watching them, which informs my belief.

 

[Steve]

We disagree about people being mostly stupid. I have the evidence of 62 years experience watching them, which informs my belief.

I mean, about half the country, by definition, has below median intelligence. So, maybe not most, but certainly many.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Rational fear is my friend. I strive to avoid irrational fear, and to recognize the difference between them. Rational fear certainly does guide my actions, like choosing not to walk down certain alleys. Irrational fear, like bring hit by a falling meteorite, does not.

We disagree about people being mostly stupid. I have the evidence of 62 years experience watching them, which informs my belief.

Well I’m 10 years younger than you. I tend towards giving the benefit of the doubt. You may be correct about people and behavior but I prefer the half full approach because that gives people a chance. If I assume everyone is just less intelligent than I am, I may miss something good. Maybe you are on the right side of the curve. I have 52 years of experience in watching myself do exceedingly stupid things, maybe that makes me a little more forgiving to people.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have this whole thing that fight training should have fighting in it.

And am not suprised statistically the difference between trained and untrained isn't clear.

Otherwise that people don't have to be trained. And that those who are trained support that dynamic. You get what you get.

This has me thinking…”The John Wick school of air soft gun fu”. Full contact airsoft sparring. Lol!

 

[drop bear]

This has me thinking…”The John Wick school of air soft gun fu”. Full contact airsoft sparring. Lol!

They do it. It's called gun games.

 

[drop bear]

Rational fear is my friend. I strive to avoid irrational fear, and to recognize the difference between them. Rational fear certainly does guide my actions, like choosing not to walk down certain alleys. Irrational fear, like bring hit by a falling meteorite, does not.

We disagree about people being mostly stupid. I have the evidence of 62 years experience watching them, which informs my belief.

I am with you on that.

I made a career on the fact adults can't drink unsupervised.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

They do it. It's called gun games.

Well I was joking but ok I will check it out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This has me thinking…”The John Wick school of air soft gun fu”. Full contact airsoft sparring. Lol!

If you offer me a discount for a 1-year membership, I'm in.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If you offer me a discount for a 1-year membership, I'm in.

Anyone who is a current MT member gets it free.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I’m just observing that when @Dirty Dog says you can improve accuracy with practice, the studies involving cops suggest that training and practice have minimal impact. And that 25% accuracy itself might be overly optimistic.

Sorry for the confusion.

You're mistaken in believing that the police train regularly. They do not, unless they're doing so as individuals.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I missed this - did mean that there are 466 million people who own guns in America, or misread that there are 466 million guns out there? Because if the first, and you mean the USA, then you should seriously question that source. Considering the population of the USA is right around 334 million people.

That's guns, not owners. Many (most?) gun owners own more than one. I own a couple dozen handguns and a handful of long guns.

 

[Bayroum]

I am not an American nor do I live in the U.S nor am I in law enforcement or anything.

But speaking just for myself, I can say that if I had the legal right to carry a firearm, I would do so and I would tell my wife to do so as well.
I hit the shooting range in Switzerland several times a year since I work in Switzerland but do not own any guns.

Since the amount of knife attacks, gang rapes as well as shootouts here in Germany where I live, has increased rapidly since the big migration influx, I say that this is eventually all about surviving. I think that a gun, if someone is well trained on it or not, can perhaps be the only way of going out of a situation alive.

Americans have quite a big privilege by being able to carry and buy guns this easily, even your strictest states or cities are a thousands times more relaxed on guns compared to Germany or other european countries. Its just me, but I think that any American who does not feel safe, should carry a gun, simply because he can... If I would live in the U.S, I would barely leave my house without a German firearm of my choice nor would my wife.

For me its a tool like anything else, used to make you go home alive when it happens.

That being said, martial arts are an important tool over here as well, since one can't legally carry a firearm.