drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah but there is a trend of stage invaders to be violent these days.
So I imagine getting on to them really quickly is the go.
Why You (Probably) Should Not Carry A Weapon
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Yeah but there is a trend of stage invaders to be violent these days.
So I imagine getting on to them really quickly is the go.
OP
OP
Here's what I'm talking about.
www.ajc.com
This guy had a gun to defend his home. He heard someone break into his car. Came outside armed. Saw car burglar. Car burglar ran away. Shot car burglar in the back of the head as he ran away, apparently from 40 yards away (good shootin', Tex). Car burglar died.
Am I feeling sympathetic to car burglars? No. I shall shed no tears for his demise. He was very much the author of his own fate.
However, the man with the gun apparently did not know, or did not care, about the law regarding deadly force and when a person may use it. I'll bet he knows and cares now, but it's a bit too late. His life is pretty much over. His remaining time on this earth will be very unpleasant.
May I say, again, for the umpteenth time; if you're going to arm yourself, you might want to take the time to learn what the law says about defending yourself with deadly force. In this case, the jury (rightly, in my opinion) found that the car burglar POSED NO THREAT to the defendant. No threat, no right to take a life. It was not self-defense.
Or, be a macho dude who don't need no laws and can do what he pleases and them there bad guys had best look out. Good luck in prison, I guess.
Man who fatally shot suspected car burglar convicted of murder in DeKalb
An Atlanta man who shot and killed another man he believed was breaking into his car in 2017 has been convicted of murder, officials said.
This guy had a gun to defend his home. He heard someone break into his car. Came outside armed. Saw car burglar. Car burglar ran away. Shot car burglar in the back of the head as he ran away, apparently from 40 yards away (good shootin', Tex). Car burglar died.
Am I feeling sympathetic to car burglars? No. I shall shed no tears for his demise. He was very much the author of his own fate.
However, the man with the gun apparently did not know, or did not care, about the law regarding deadly force and when a person may use it. I'll bet he knows and cares now, but it's a bit too late. His life is pretty much over. His remaining time on this earth will be very unpleasant.
May I say, again, for the umpteenth time; if you're going to arm yourself, you might want to take the time to learn what the law says about defending yourself with deadly force. In this case, the jury (rightly, in my opinion) found that the car burglar POSED NO THREAT to the defendant. No threat, no right to take a life. It was not self-defense.
Or, be a macho dude who don't need no laws and can do what he pleases and them there bad guys had best look out. Good luck in prison, I guess.
All weapons are lethal force weapons.
I’d hate to live in a country where criminals are empowered to carry weapons and have an advantage over others
There really isn’t, especially if it’s not a rap concert. Which in this case it wasn’t.
There’s a trend for people to randomly throw things on stage.
Imho if it looks bad it is bad, regardless of how you try to justify it.
Yep. Ego fucks peoples’ lives up so often.Here's what I'm talking about.
Man who fatally shot suspected car burglar convicted of murder in DeKalb
An Atlanta man who shot and killed another man he believed was breaking into his car in 2017 has been convicted of murder, officials said.
This guy had a gun to defend his home. He heard someone break into his car. Came outside armed. Saw car burglar. Car burglar ran away. Shot car burglar in the back of the head as he ran away, apparently from 40 yards away (good shootin', Tex). Car burglar died.
Am I feeling sympathetic to car burglars? No. I shall shed no tears for his demise. He was very much the author of his own fate.
However, the man with the gun apparently did not know, or did not care, about the law regarding deadly force and when a person may use it. I'll bet he knows and cares now, but it's a bit too late. His life is pretty much over. His remaining time on this earth will be very unpleasant.
May I say, again, for the umpteenth time; if you're going to arm yourself, you might want to take the time to learn what the law says about defending yourself with deadly force. In this case, the jury (rightly, in my opinion) found that the car burglar POSED NO THREAT to the defendant. No threat, no right to take a life. It was not self-defense.
Or, be a macho dude who don't need no laws and can do what he pleases and them there bad guys had best look out. Good luck in prison, I guess.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It was a rap concert.
His job is to protect the person singing from an assault.
If you want to protect the person singing. You have to get there fast.
If you get there fast, then you are going to have some momentum when you deal with the guy. And the guy will probably be moved a decent distance.
It is physics is the real criminal here.
Last edited:
That’s not the video I was talking about. The video I saw, had a dude playing a tuba in the band next to the vocalist. I think it was a Hispanic band of some sort.
Protecting someone from assault doesn’t mean assaulting someone who has yet to commit assault.
Just because your team failed to maintain perimeter doesn’t mean you get to assault someone.
You can have momentum, doesn’t mean you have to slam into them. I’ve done security most of my adult life for work, and I can say for sure if it looks bad 99% chance what you did was bad.
Taiji Rebel
Black Belt
Brian King recommended the following book, and it is a brilliant read - certainly gets you thinking about the consequences and repercussions of firearms:
There is also a great podcast interview with the author here:
thecomellafoundation.org
There is also a great podcast interview with the author here:
Overcoming the Pain of Being SHOT with Gene Smithson - The Comella Foundation
Today we'll be speaking with Gene Smithson. An exciting and inspiration story of overcoming the pain after being shot. Check out the podcast now!
thecomellafoundation.org
Taiji Rebel
Black Belt
What a sad story. Everyone involved in this was a victim, including the man trying to steal the car. Material possessions such as cars can be replaced, but once a life is taken it cannot. Real life is not an action movie and there are many repercussions from using deadly force, even if the law clears and justifies those actions. Taking a life has deep psychological consequences - just take the time to talk to military or law-enforcement personnel who have done so and you will see the issues it can cause.Here's what I'm talking about.
Man who fatally shot suspected car burglar convicted of murder in DeKalb
An Atlanta man who shot and killed another man he believed was breaking into his car in 2017 has been convicted of murder, officials said.
This guy had a gun to defend his home. He heard someone break into his car. Came outside armed. Saw car burglar. Car burglar ran away. Shot car burglar in the back of the head as he ran away, apparently from 40 yards away (good shootin', Tex). Car burglar died.
Am I feeling sympathetic to car burglars? No. I shall shed no tears for his demise. He was very much the author of his own fate.
However, the man with the gun apparently did not know, or did not care, about the law regarding deadly force and when a person may use it. I'll bet he knows and cares now, but it's a bit too late. His life is pretty much over. His remaining time on this earth will be very unpleasant.
May I say, again, for the umpteenth time; if you're going to arm yourself, you might want to take the time to learn what the law says about defending yourself with deadly force. In this case, the jury (rightly, in my opinion) found that the car burglar POSED NO THREAT to the defendant. No threat, no right to take a life. It was not self-defense.
Or, be a macho dude who don't need no laws and can do what he pleases and them there bad guys had best look out. Good luck in prison, I guess.
We need more love, respect and understanding in the world, not violence
I’m not a lawyer, but if they are approaching in a manner that puts someone in fear of harm, that likely already qualifies as assault.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Here's what I'm talking about.
Man who fatally shot suspected car burglar convicted of murder in DeKalb
An Atlanta man who shot and killed another man he believed was breaking into his car in 2017 has been convicted of murder, officials said.
This guy had a gun to defend his home. He heard someone break into his car. Came outside armed. Saw car burglar. Car burglar ran away. Shot car burglar in the back of the head as he ran away, apparently from 40 yards away (good shootin', Tex). Car burglar died.
Am I feeling sympathetic to car burglars? No. I shall shed no tears for his demise. He was very much the author of his own fate.
However, the man with the gun apparently did not know, or did not care, about the law regarding deadly force and when a person may use it. I'll bet he knows and cares now, but it's a bit too late. His life is pretty much over. His remaining time on this earth will be very unpleasant.
May I say, again, for the umpteenth time; if you're going to arm yourself, you might want to take the time to learn what the law says about defending yourself with deadly force. In this case, the jury (rightly, in my opinion) found that the car burglar POSED NO THREAT to the defendant. No threat, no right to take a life. It was not self-defense.
Or, be a macho dude who don't need no laws and can do what he pleases and them there bad guys had best look out. Good luck in prison, I guess.
That was always a big thing for me. Is acting going to cause more problems than not acting.
I had that issue once with a down syndrome kid who acted out and broke some stuff.
And so I ran out there all gangster like do and thought. How is this going to end? Either me bashing a down syndrome kid or a down syndrome kid bashing me.
I am not going to win that either way.
So I just let him go with a "Hey you!"
So, as long as we are talking about things people should be aware of or consider when deciding to carry a weapon, I thought I would bring in few statistics and studies. These situations do not follow what we see in TV or movies.
The first bit, I will not link the articles as they are at the center of some political debate, which does not belong here. There is one study by Kleck, which is on one side of the debate and then another study by Cook and Ludwig, which was conducted by people who disagreed with Kleck's findings, in an effort to disprove Kleck's work. However, both of these studies agree on 2 results, but I will only bring up 1 of those results here. Both studies, from both ends of the spectrum (one actually aimed at disproving the first....) agreed that in more than 90% of defensive gun uses, the gun is never fired. In fact, most studies show this....
Now, to the study I will link: Self Defense Findings
This study was about what happens when people use a fire arm to defend themselves. (this one finds 70% of the time the gun is fired... but then they wanted to study situations where the victim fired there gun.... so it is an outlier in terms of how often is the gun fired during a defensive use, but then again this study was to be about situations where the gun is fired by the bad guy....) Anyway, it has some interesting results that people should know:
You will not need large capacity magazines, or large caliber weapons....
You need to be comfortable handling and operating the weapon safely....
Again, you do not need to horde all the ammo....
The most likely place to need one is in the home or business....
You only need about 2 rounds.... you do not need amazing reloading skills
You do not need to shoot super long distances.... if they are that far away, are you really in danger?
The gun does not need to be locked and loaded all the time....
Large magazines are not needed....
Even with multiple attackers.... after the first shot, they all become multiple runners...
You will have time to go get your gun.... meaning you can store it safely.
You can store a small caliber handgun, safely and responsibly in your home and if you ever need it.... you should have plenty of time to use it.
I know these present a totally different scenario to what we see on TV.... but this is what really happens. If you are considering getting a weapon, in addition to learning the laws, and training to use the weapon you should also understand what you are preparing for....
The first bit, I will not link the articles as they are at the center of some political debate, which does not belong here. There is one study by Kleck, which is on one side of the debate and then another study by Cook and Ludwig, which was conducted by people who disagreed with Kleck's findings, in an effort to disprove Kleck's work. However, both of these studies agree on 2 results, but I will only bring up 1 of those results here. Both studies, from both ends of the spectrum (one actually aimed at disproving the first....) agreed that in more than 90% of defensive gun uses, the gun is never fired. In fact, most studies show this....
Now, to the study I will link: Self Defense Findings
This study was about what happens when people use a fire arm to defend themselves. (this one finds 70% of the time the gun is fired... but then they wanted to study situations where the victim fired there gun.... so it is an outlier in terms of how often is the gun fired during a defensive use, but then again this study was to be about situations where the gun is fired by the bad guy....) Anyway, it has some interesting results that people should know:
You will not need large capacity magazines, or large caliber weapons....
You need to be comfortable handling and operating the weapon safely....
Again, you do not need to horde all the ammo....
The most likely place to need one is in the home or business....
You only need about 2 rounds.... you do not need amazing reloading skills
You do not need to shoot super long distances.... if they are that far away, are you really in danger?
The gun does not need to be locked and loaded all the time....
Large magazines are not needed....
Even with multiple attackers.... after the first shot, they all become multiple runners...
You will have time to go get your gun.... meaning you can store it safely.
You can store a small caliber handgun, safely and responsibly in your home and if you ever need it.... you should have plenty of time to use it.
I know these present a totally different scenario to what we see on TV.... but this is what really happens. If you are considering getting a weapon, in addition to learning the laws, and training to use the weapon you should also understand what you are preparing for....
No, the manner of approach is irrelevant in most situations. Running, or walking, etc.
If a person approaches with weapon in hand or verbally issuing threats while approaching there is an argument for preemptive action, but someone simply running towards a celebrity because obviously security is expected to intervene to stop them.
There has to be something in what they do or say, that would lead a reasonable person to come to the same conclusion based on the knowledge that the ‘defender’(for lack of better term at the moment) had at the time.
The worst part is very few people understand that MOST crime is a result of people who are broke as hell just trying to find a way to get by.What a sad story. Everyone involved in this was a victim, including the man trying to steal the car. Material possessions such as cars can be replaced, but once a life is taken it cannot. Real life is not an action movie and there are many repercussions from using deadly force, even if the law clears and justifies those actions. Taking a life has deep psychological consequences - just take the time to talk to military or law-enforcement personnel who have done so and you will see the issues it can cause.
We need more love, respect and understanding in the world, not violence
Very small amounts of crimes like theft or car jacking are just career criminals who do crime just because they’re psychos and they find crime fun or something.
In most cases people stealing are victims of circumstance and broken systems.
Studies have also found that 75% of shots fired under stress miss completely, and that it takes, on average, 3 hits to neutralize a threat. The math is pretty simple. That's 12 rounds.
The most commonly carried handgun is 9mm, which is certainly not a large caliber.
That's a "well duh" statement.
This is not a thing. Many of us buy ammo in bulk. Because it's cheaper. I typically order 3,000-5,000 rounds at a time. That may sound like a lot to a non-shooter. It's not. Because defensive ammo is not the same as the ammo used for target practice. I have a couple hundred rounds of defensive ammo, in the various calibers I shoot. I probably have 6,000-7,000 rounds of target ammo currently. When I go to the range, 500 rounds of target ammo is not at all unusual. Because you want to reduce that 75% miss rate, and in order for shots to end a threat, they have to hit something vital. So marksmanship.
Irrelevant.
Incorrect.
I don't need an 800+ HP car either, but I have one. Reloading skills are part of "comfortable handling and operating the weapon safely".
The indoor range I use is only 50'. I do most of my training at 20' or less. But I do shoot long range. Because it's fun. And it builds marksmanship skills that can reduce that 75% miss rate under stress.
The longest shot within my house would be about 80'. If you're in my house uninvited, I'm in danger.
The longest shot outside my house, but still on my property would definitely be a rifle shot, not handgun.
If it's not, then it's just a really expensive rock.
12 rounds is the mathematical minimum. Neither is it a large magazine.
You hope. Being prepared means preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. If you disagree, you clearly train MA for some reason other than self defense. Because you're very unlikely to ever be assaulted.
My gun is safely stored at all times. Within arms reach.
I have a couple dozen small caliber handguns (mostly 9mm, but some .45ACP and one .410/45 Colt) stored safely and responsibly in my home. And they're all loaded.
OP
OP
Leaving aside the sociological ramifications of using deadly force on a car burglar, I just want to dwell on a subject I return to again and again. Stupid gun owners. No, I am not saying gun owners are stupid. I'd be calling myself stupid, because I am a gun owner. What I refer to are the people who arm themselves and consider it job done. It is not.
Again, I say, if you are going to arm yourself, for use in or outside of your home, you *must* become proficient with your weapon. How to handle it safely, and how to shoot straight. You *must* know the laws in your area on self-defense with a deadly weapon and deadly force. How to keep it out of the hands of those who might harm themselves accidentally (like children in the home, or leaving it hanging on the back on the public toilet stall door).
If you choose to arm yourself and NOT do those things, you are a very big part of the problem. You won't recognize yourself in that description, because you are a stupid, stupid person (not you personally, I mean the generic 'you'). You want a gun for protection, but you don't own a fire extinguisher. You want to save lives, but you don't know how to do CPR. You hate cops but you think your gun or your concealed carry permit came with a badge (it didn't). Know what I really think? I think you have a gun because you're compensating for something. Just saying. I know a bunch of guys who go from one EDC gun to another, every year, as new calibers and night sights and laser gadgets, and so on come out. It's just an SUV that goes bang. My personal home defense weapon? A 1970s era Model 10 Smith & Wesson 38 special. Works great. A guaranteed stopper. Doesn't shoot through my walls and into my neighbor's house across the street. A shotgun would also be great.
I do not like criminals. Car burglars and the like. I recognize that they may have many issues in their lives that drive them to the kind of behavior they commit, but I still don't want to be burgled or robbed or assaulted. I will do what I can to defend my life and the lives of my loved ones.
However, and I have said this many times, a significant part of SELF DEFENSE is understanding when it is appropriate to fight, when it is better to flee, and when it is better to get a good description, give up your property, and call the cops later.
When I was a police dispatcher, a fellow dispatcher lost her husband to murder. He heard a noise in the night, ran outside, confronted a group of car burglars, and they killed him on the spot. Nobody wants to have their car rifled through or stolen. But she had to raise their children on her dispatcher's salary without her husband, so tell me how that was SELF DEFENSE? He defended no one, least of all himself.
Yes, yes, we're all macho, macho, dudes and dudettes. We train martial arts, we're death on the hoof, and some of use are armed to the teeth with all manner of guns, knives, throwing stars, pockets of sand, and whatever else. But any one of us could get in a fight, slip on gravel or ice, crack our heads open, and game over. That, by the way, happens a sadly high number of times.
Perhaps it is better to train to defend ourselves and then engage our brains to decide WHEN to defend ourselves. I'll shoot someone who busts in my front door in the middle of the night, you betcha. I won't go out into the street in the middle of the night with my gat to investigate a noise in the driveway. I have a phone to call 911, a gun to defend myself if they decide to come inside, and insurance. Take the car. I don't love their life; I love mine. And I know how to evaluate risk.
Again, I say, if you are going to arm yourself, for use in or outside of your home, you *must* become proficient with your weapon. How to handle it safely, and how to shoot straight. You *must* know the laws in your area on self-defense with a deadly weapon and deadly force. How to keep it out of the hands of those who might harm themselves accidentally (like children in the home, or leaving it hanging on the back on the public toilet stall door).
If you choose to arm yourself and NOT do those things, you are a very big part of the problem. You won't recognize yourself in that description, because you are a stupid, stupid person (not you personally, I mean the generic 'you'). You want a gun for protection, but you don't own a fire extinguisher. You want to save lives, but you don't know how to do CPR. You hate cops but you think your gun or your concealed carry permit came with a badge (it didn't). Know what I really think? I think you have a gun because you're compensating for something. Just saying. I know a bunch of guys who go from one EDC gun to another, every year, as new calibers and night sights and laser gadgets, and so on come out. It's just an SUV that goes bang. My personal home defense weapon? A 1970s era Model 10 Smith & Wesson 38 special. Works great. A guaranteed stopper. Doesn't shoot through my walls and into my neighbor's house across the street. A shotgun would also be great.
I do not like criminals. Car burglars and the like. I recognize that they may have many issues in their lives that drive them to the kind of behavior they commit, but I still don't want to be burgled or robbed or assaulted. I will do what I can to defend my life and the lives of my loved ones.
However, and I have said this many times, a significant part of SELF DEFENSE is understanding when it is appropriate to fight, when it is better to flee, and when it is better to get a good description, give up your property, and call the cops later.
When I was a police dispatcher, a fellow dispatcher lost her husband to murder. He heard a noise in the night, ran outside, confronted a group of car burglars, and they killed him on the spot. Nobody wants to have their car rifled through or stolen. But she had to raise their children on her dispatcher's salary without her husband, so tell me how that was SELF DEFENSE? He defended no one, least of all himself.
Yes, yes, we're all macho, macho, dudes and dudettes. We train martial arts, we're death on the hoof, and some of use are armed to the teeth with all manner of guns, knives, throwing stars, pockets of sand, and whatever else. But any one of us could get in a fight, slip on gravel or ice, crack our heads open, and game over. That, by the way, happens a sadly high number of times.
Perhaps it is better to train to defend ourselves and then engage our brains to decide WHEN to defend ourselves. I'll shoot someone who busts in my front door in the middle of the night, you betcha. I won't go out into the street in the middle of the night with my gat to investigate a noise in the driveway. I have a phone to call 911, a gun to defend myself if they decide to come inside, and insurance. Take the car. I don't love their life; I love mine. And I know how to evaluate risk.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
There are a lot of strong opinions about what other people “should” do, or need in this thread. The real or imagined self defense use of a weapon is completely subjective to the scenario. The type of weapon, the person using it, the time of day, the location, the people involved and bystanders, and the mental or emotional state of everyone involved are all variable factors that affect these types of situations. Unfortunately, I most often hear people on both sides of these arguments being emotionally driven to make their point. Often, these “points” seem to be politically biased to either extreme. I personally believe a person has a right to defend themselves or others from criminal intent to harm. I don’t believe that relieves anyone of their responsibility for any actions in that regard, I likewise don’t believe anyone “should” tell me how to go about being prepared for any real or imagined scenario when they aren’t privy to the details of my particular situation. Twelve gauge shotguns for example, are not a good choice if you live in an apartment building because 00 buck will penetrate several interior walls with enough power to kill. If you live alone in a cabin it might be just the right tool. Small caliber handgun might be fine for a small or weaker person who lives in town but could be totally worthless to a person confronted with a bear in their house, particularly a low capacity, small caliber revolver. Buying ammunition in bulk is less expensive, and is typically indicative of someone who actually trains regularly. It should be noted that training regularly with a self defense weapon could translate to being a responsible weapon owner. Again, my point here is that use of, or ownership of weaponry of any kind for a self defense situation needs to be viewed through a circumstantial lens in order to understand the motivation and application. None of this precludes the full responsibility that comes with making a choice to do this. That said, an individual adult who is an upstanding citizen “should” be able to self determine the best choice for themselves in their own unique situation or circumstances. There are stupid people out there making all kinds of bad decisions that put all of us in jeopardy everyday, being afraid and locking all the kitchen knives away won’t change that.
However, studies about victims using their gun show that usually only 2 rounds are fired. They also show that once the first shot goes off, everyone starts running, whether they are neutralized or not. From the study: "Even mouseguns displayed a significant degree of immediate lethality (30% immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range." (mouseguns being .380s and below) 30% immediate one shot kills, at the close distances involved.
This was in reference to the multiple attacker bit....
"The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot."
"Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there are no apparent cases of drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. Immediate flight is the most common response for drivers and lookouts at the sound of gunfire."
This is not a "hope" this is what did happen.
The entire point here is that what really happens is different than what most people think. You can have your 9mm with extended magazines, 16 rounds each and be able to hot swap them in a tenth of a second, while picking off playing cards thrown into the air from 30 feet away.... but in reality, if something were to happen, it will most likely be in your home or business, you will most likely have enough time to get your mousegun out of the safe, and load it, then talk with the bad gay warning him to leave.... and most likely one or two shots will have him dead or running for his life.
Can you show studies where the defender needed all 12 rounds... or more than the 5 rounds of a small revolver? I am looking for a study of actual victims responding in real world situations.... (yes, I understand the math about putting people under stress while hitting targets.... and that it takes 3 rounds to stop the guy on average.... but in the real world situations, after the first 1 to 2 shots, the bad guy was dead or running.... )
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
We don’t know who conducted the study that you are quoting or how they went about it, or who funded it, or if it includes self defense against non humans. BTW the aliens might be wearing body armor and have lasers. I can tell you from personal experience that large dogs can take several rounds of 9mm at point blank range to the head, neck, and back and still maul a person nearly to death. I have seen several dogs shot multiple times that did not die. I have even seen an axe imbedded in the skull of a 12 year old pit bull who seemed not to notice he was wounded and he recovered completely in a few weeks.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
One shot kills doesn’t mean they died instantly, lots of people(and animals) run long distance and/or injure the shooter before they succumb to their injuries. Be careful not to conflate the study findings with finality in this regard.
Similar threads
