Concealed Weapons choices

[Brian King]

Thanks for the thread.
HIGHLY recommend a strong LED type of small fist size bright flashlight and depending on size of your hands a D or C cell mag light... in addition to which ever handgun you are most comfortable carrying.

Not sure if you have done any work with a light- but the light is a force multiplier from nearly any distance.

I can recommend without any reservations Ken's book (see link below) and any training you could do with him.

https://www.amazon.com/Strategies-Low-Light-Engagments-Ken-Good/dp/1424309131

The book can be found on his web site for much cheaper I believe. I have also seen PDF's floating around the web of his earlier work.

Good luck.
Regards
Brian King

 

[drop bear]

Really? As a tool using primate you should realize just how dangerous other tool using primates may be and that having a tool available to you is a better option than not.

It depends what sort of conflict you are dealing with. If you have a a bat you can't secure then you pretty much have to hit the other guy with it. Which can sometimes be an over cooked response.

I am personally not about staving some trespassers head in for no good reason.

 

[oftheherd1]

Really? As a tool using primate you should realize just how dangerous other tool using primates may be and that having a tool available to you is a better option than not.

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

So I take it you have never had training on defense against weapons, or never really practiced it a lot? In the Hapkido I studied we learned defense against knives and swords, and many could be used against bludgeons/sticks.

But your point is well taken.

 

[jks9199]

Hello,
I am a teacher and I teach adult students in the evening. We have had a few times when "unauthorized" people have tried to gain entry into the building (not a big deal now as they were not violent, but I DO NOT allow people in the building at night).

I am looking for a weapons choice that I can carry in deep concealment and still be armed in a worst case situation.

In Kansas, USA I can carry a concealed firearm without a permit, so a firearm is an option (I have 4 handguns). I am not allowed to carry a baton (illegal). The stick would be a good option since I trained in Kali a few years back...but the law in Kansas says "NO...I can have a .45 on my belt but not a stick).

Any ideas as to a less than lethal option for self defense weapons?
Thanks
Jeremy Bays

I wasn't able to respond over the last few days, though I've followed the thread. Let's try taking this from a different angle...

What threat are you concerned about? That might shape your choices. You say you want a less than lethal option as a last ditch holdout, if I've followed your post properly. Correct? Personally -- my last ditch holdout is ME. My hands, feet, elbows, knees, head... because in the end, those are things that can't be separated from me, and I can scale the response all the way up to lethal, if need be. But you still want to be "armed."

OK... Medium to big length sticks suck as "deep concealment" because they're... sticks. Rigid, and often nearly as long as a limb or major portion thereof. At the same time, they can be invisible since stick like objects are all around us all the time. So that's one plus... A collapsible umbrella in your bag, with a little planning and maybe some careful shopping for one that holds up to striking (in an emergency) is there "in case of rain" (or maybe, with a wink and a knudge, other emergencies...) Another option is the "fist stick" -- kubotans and similar objects just barely longer than your fist. There are entire systems for using them -- and again, they're not that scream weapon.

Have you considered pepper spray? It's easily available, and can be effective with minimal training. It's far from a great solution, in my opinion, because it often doesn't do much more than piss an assailant off.

Another option is the Taser Pulse or the Taser Bolt (which apparently repackaged and replaced the C2, though limited C2s may be available.) I do specifically suggest Taser, not stun guns. The Neuromuscular Incapacitation effect is exclusive to Taser, and moves them from simple pain compliance "cattle prods" to something that has the potentional to seriously incapacitate an assailant for several seconds. (I admit some prejudice here; I am a Taser Instructor and have used the CEW successfully in the field.) But neither are magic wands that work every time.

You've said you're a teacher. Have you considered ways to harden the facility, like things to let you keep the door from being opened against your will? Tools to create cover rather than mere concealment in the classroom? Ways to restrain someone, if necessary? Some rope and a simple knot can go a long way here.

 

[Balrog]

Seconding the maglight. You can use it however you would a stick, but it is not technically a weapon.

Thirding. A 4 cell Maglite is a wonderful thing. I also carry the mini Maglite as a keychain. It does double duty as a kubaton.

 

[Charlemagne]

I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?

Because the other guy gets a vote too, could have a weapon, could be trained, and there could be more than one of them. Any sane person recognizes that planning to go hand to hand versus having a weapon is a stupid choice for self-defense.

 

[Blindside]

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

So I take it you have never had training on defense against weapons, or never really practiced it a lot? In the Hapkido I studied we learned defense against knives and swords, and many could be used against bludgeons/sticks.

But your point is well taken.

Honestly, my counter weapons training is world class, I hold a funny sounding rank title in a specialist weapon system known for its knife material, I do full contact weapon fighting with the Dog Brothers for fun. In general I am pretty comfortable saying my knowledge of weapons and counter-weapons is pretty decent. The funny thing is that when training with those subject matter experts, there is a consistent theme, that when off the training floor they are armed with something besides their bare hands. Why? because they know better than anyone how much being the unarmed monkey sucks.

 

[Juany118]

Do you study a martial art? If so, what belt do you hold? If you are belted, why would a stick be better that what you have learned in your martial art? I'm not trying to be snarky. I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?

First, Two words, force multiplier. I study both Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali. Though I don't carry a gun with me anywhere near as much as I used to I always carry an EDC Knife which also doubles as an impact weapon (see Fox DART XT). Why? Well as said, you never know if the other guy has a weapon. Also having a force multiplier (again if legally justifiable) means you can likely end an encounter faster, which means less injury to yourself. I am even considering starting to carry a compact expandable baton off duty.

As for disarming there are reasons why even cultures with deep Martial Arts traditions equipped their soldiers with weapons Why?

1. Even with a short knife you have range over the opponent. So the opponent will be in a no man's land for a time related to the length of your weapon in order to close for the disarm. This puts you at an advantage.
2. Someone properly trained will often go for limbs first, "defang the snake.". Even my HEMA friends study this. When they compete they go for the head and torso (which is what most unarmed arts disarms assume) in competition BUT only because that is worth more points. The manuals of HEMA, like FMA, also put a premium at attacking the limbs.

There is a reason most full featured martial arts integrate weapons at one point or another. They make you more dangerous. If disarming an armed subject was the answer they wouldn't integrate them. Here I think is a good, and funny, example...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I carry 24/7 in the house, out of the house, etc. I want multiple tools that I could potentially use if needed for a wide range of threats.

Personally, the edc I carry are:
Handgun
folding knife
pocket flashlight

This allows me to have light in a low light situation. Which is always good and on more than a few occasions has saved my lfie or a member of my families life. A tool to cut and open boxes, etc. How useful is that. I open boxes every day so that folding knife sees a lot of activity. Finally a projectile weapon that I could use to defend myself at a distance. Having multiple options could allow me to use a lower level of force than a higher level of force. That is always a good situation as well!

 

[oftheherd1]

Because the other guy gets a vote too, could have a weapon, could be trained, and there could be more than one of them. Any sane person recognizes that planning to go hand to hand versus having a weapon is a stupid choice for self-defense.

I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times. How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away. Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.

As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon. You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.

I understand a person may encounter an opponent with a weapon. It has been said here that usually a weapon is pulled as a threat. I understand that some although they are threatening, may in fact know how to use their weapon. But they may not be expecting resistance, and that may be to the advantage of the person attacked. Especially if that person is a trained martial artist. Assuming of course they choose not to follow the normal advice of giving up whatever they are being threatened for, as is so often stated here in MT.

Of course the above are my opinions only, and need not be accepted by anyone else.

Honestly, my counter weapons training is world class, I hold a funny sounding rank title in a specialist weapon system known for its knife material, I do full contact weapon fighting with the Dog Brothers for fun. In general I am pretty comfortable saying my knowledge of weapons and counter-weapons is pretty decent. The funny thing is that when training with those subject matter experts, there is a consistent theme, that when off the training floor they are armed with something besides their bare hands. Why? because they know better than anyone how much being the unarmed monkey sucks.

I salute your extensive training.

 

[Justin Chang]

As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon. You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.

I disagree, I always carry a knife and a Spikey and I have trained in how to use them to defend myself, I have been involed in a few (3) real self-defense situations one of which involved the other person pulling a knife, in none of these situations did I ever pull my knife or spikey because I didn't think the situations called for them.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times. How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away. Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.

Well sure.
If the OP asked "What's the best way to deal with a person trying to enter the school building?" they'd get an entirely different set of answers.
But that isn't what they asked. They asked about concealed weapons, so (naturally enough) they got answers based on concealed weapon choices.

 

[oftheherd1]

I disagree, I always carry a knife and a Spikey and I have trained in how to use them to defend myself, I have been involed in a few (3) real self-defense situations one of which involved the other person pulling a knife, in none of these situations did I ever pull my knife or spikey because I didn't think the situations called for them.

Everyone should act as they think best. And as I said, no one else need accept my opinions. I am glad your encounters worked out well for you.

 

[oftheherd1]

Thanks for the grounded. I am a trained martial artist with over 30 years in various arts....(TKD, Shotokan, Kali. JKD, Systema, and Western Martial Arts ). I am not 'reacting' to someone trying to come into the school at 930pm. That is really not the main point. I had the skills and present of mind to turn this person away with minimal contact and some stern words.

I am responsible for the safety of 50 students and 4 teachers. The area this school is in has seen 3 shooting and a stabbing in the last 8 months or so. I DO NOT want to resort to a firearm, thus my question. It just seems in Kansas I can have a canon on my hip, but not be allowed to hold a stick in self-defense.
Thanks again
Jeremy Bays

Well sure.
If the OP asked "What's the best way to deal with a person trying to enter the school building?" they'd get an entirely different set of answers.
But that isn't what they asked. They asked about concealed weapons, so (naturally enough) they got answers based on concealed weapon choices.

A little of both I thought. He was looking for a concealed weapon for sure, but not a gun. But were it me, I think I would go with your advice; carry a gun, as long as it was legal for me to do so. It would not be legal for me where I am, but apparently is where the OP is, just that he doesn't want to.

I also rather like the spikey (which I hadn't heard of before) mentioned by Justin Chang. But despite some of the advertising, I think it would best be used by someone with training in grappling arts, or at least some grappling techniques.

 

[Charlemagne]

I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times. How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away. Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.

As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon. You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.

I understand a person may encounter an opponent with a weapon. It has been said here that usually a weapon is pulled as a threat. I understand that some although they are threatening, may in fact know how to use their weapon. But they may not be expecting resistance, and that may be to the advantage of the person attacked. Especially if that person is a trained martial artist. Assuming of course they choose not to follow the normal advice of giving up whatever they are being threatened for, as is so often stated here in MT.

You mistakenly assume that training and carrying a weapon requires that it be used. It doesn't. It provides the option, as opposed to not carrying one, to use the entire continuum of force. And again, thinking that your empty hand versus weapons training is going to work, particularly in a martial art that does not really emphasis weapons, is a recipe for death. Good luck with that.

 

[Blindside]

As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon. You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.
.

Learning to use a weapon for combat or self-protection IS martial arts. And the additional tools just give me options, I can do the unarmed thing just fine or I can do the tool thing, I like to have the opportunity to choose.

 

[oftheherd1]

You mistakenly assume that training and carrying a weapon requires that it be used. It doesn't. It provides the option, as opposed to not carrying one, to use the entire continuum of force. And again, thinking that your empty hand versus weapons training is going to work, particularly in a martial art that does not really emphasis weapons, is a recipe for death. Good luck with that.

If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.

I don't know that I am mistaken. I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it. And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.

Learning to use a weapon for combat or self-protection IS martial arts. And the additional tools just give me options, I can do the unarmed thing just fine or I can do the tool thing, I like to have the opportunity to choose.

That is true. For you as I believe you. And for me because I know myself. For how many others can you definitely state that is true? And even you and I, if we perceive our unarmed defense may not work will then pull and use a weapon to ensure our opponent can't get to it?

Well, we all have our opinions. I have stated mine and you two have stated yours. I am confident in my response as I am sure you two are in yours. If somebody reading this thread gets something useful from our differing opinions, that would be good.

 

[Charlemagne]

If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.

No. If they don't teach it well. And most do not, unless they happen to be martial arts that actually train the use of weapons, and not some esoteric weapon that farmers used 200 years ago, but weapons that are actually seen in use today.

I don't know that I am mistaken. I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it. And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.

You are wrong. I carry one on a daily basis, and I do so in the hope that I never, ever, have to use it.

 

[Juany118]

If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.

I don't know that I am mistaken. I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it. And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.

Here is a question. Do your blocks always work? No sometimes you get hit. Now take into account a disarm is far more difficult. Both my arts teach empty hand disarms AND weapons. Kali out of the gate with weapons, Wing Chun later. Again there is a reason Martial Arts include weapons. Even Hapkido has weapons eventually for the reasons I posted earlier

As for the last, shenanigans. First I carry a knife for utility as well. It can be used for self-defense yes BUT part of self defense training should be an understand of appropriate use of force. To use your logic is akin to saying if a martial arts teaches throat shots (lethal force) it will be prominent in their minds.

 

[drop bear]

I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times. How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away. Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.

As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon. You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.

I understand a person may encounter an opponent with a weapon. It has been said here that usually a weapon is pulled as a threat. I understand that some although they are threatening, may in fact know how to use their weapon. But they may not be expecting resistance, and that may be to the advantage of the person attacked. Especially if that person is a trained martial artist. Assuming of course they choose not to follow the normal advice of giving up whatever they are being threatened for, as is so often stated here in MT.

Of course the above are my opinions only, and need not be accepted by anyone else.



I salute your extensive training.

But you try to keep it a bit in theme with the thread. So if a guy wants weapons. Then you help with weapon choices.

If a guy is constantly cracking dudes in the head with that maglight. Then suggest deescalation.

Otherwise you are basically patronising someone if they want weapons and the only advice you can give is avoid fights.