Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, you are unsure. It's a constant you display, like that other poster with all the headaches.

Don't want to miss, "all over the place." I said: difference in method, you reply: Sports players train in MMA.

The bill you try to pin on me, pins right to yourself.

Um, nope. Not anything like anything I've ever said. Not once, in the many thousands of posts I've made on this forum. Never. Uh-uh. Nope.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Please can you look at the last thing this guy posted to me and let me know if you can make any sense of it

Some. Not much. Mostly, he's just evading any reasonable questions by throwing back insults, less-reasonable versions of the same questions, and garbled responses.

 

[ShotoNoob]

My god....you actually took that comment about headaches lol that is hilarious.

Yes, it's hilarious how you say nothing, then blame the other fellow for saying nothing. "My god" for emphasis, so special.

Better a laundry list of martial arts than not even being able to name one martial art that I train funny you can't even give a name for your style hmm I wonder why. Wonder what you'll change the subject to next to avoid the question

More funny. Adding value by saying nothing but the derogatory, then claiming the high road.

There you go again. I'd be on subject if I could get a reasoned reply. Wonder is right.

 

[ShotoNoob]

So, you've never trained in Kempo, nor boxing, yet you're certain they can't be complementary.

So you have an understanding of kempo, what it's about? And boxing also?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Um, nope. Not anything like anything I've ever said. Not once, in the many thousands of posts I've made on this forum. Never. Uh-uh. Nope.

Thanks for checking. I'll follow up.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Some. Not much. Mostly, he's just evading any reasonable questions by throwing back insults, less-reasonable versions of the same questions, and garbled responses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you have an understanding of kempo, what it's about? And boxing also?

Less of Kempo, some of boxing. You'll note I've not made any statements about how they combine. There's a reason for that.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Less of Kempo, some of boxing. You'll note I've not made any statements about how they combine. There's a reason for that.

How does the boxing vs. kempo strike you, I mean impress you?

I have to go back to your website to refresh myself on what martial arts you ascribe to. As I recall, it appeared to be more sophisticated technically compared to the Japanese karates.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How does the boxing vs. kempo strike you, I mean impress you?

I've yet to find two arts I don't consider combinable in a useful way. But others disagree with that - I suspect it depends how the individual looks at their training. I'm pretty conceptual, which seems to make it simple to combine mechanics from different styles. I find, for instance, no conflict between my primary art's punch (roughly the same as what's taught in Shotokan Karatedo) and a boxing punch. I blend the two together without effort. I also blend in techniques from other arts without an issue.

I have to go back to your website to refresh myself on what martial arts you ascribe to. As I recall, it appeared to be more sophisticated technically compared to the Japanese karates.

The website isn't much help - Nihon Goshin Aikido isn't well-known, so doesn't usually provide much insight. NGA is a relatively new (1940's), moderately traditional art. The base comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, from the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu). The strikes ostensibly come from Shotokan (though I suspect some strong Goju-ryu influence). There's also influence from Judo, and likely some form Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I've yet to find two arts I don't consider combinable in a useful way. But others disagree with that - I suspect it depends how the individual looks at their training.

Yes/ agreed, and that is the source of our divide in training philosophy, as I stated long ago. My premise is there is fundamental difference in approach which in attempting to combine one either doesn't see, and/or screws up the mixture, like oil & water. Or, the emphasis is improperly weighted.

I'm pretty conceptual, which seems to make it simple to combine mechanics from different styles. I find, for instance, no conflict between my primary art's punch (roughly the same as what's taught in Shotokan Karatedo) and a boxing punch. I blend the two together without effort. I also blend in techniques from other arts without an issue.

Concepts can be wrong. Conclusions can be mistaken. Don't forget however, from what I've heard from you / your postings, I can see how you can be/ are succeeding. I believe you can / are getting results.

The website isn't much help - Nihon Goshin Aikido isn't well-known, so doesn't usually provide much insight. NGA is a relatively new (1940's), moderately traditional art. The base comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, from the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu). The strikes ostensibly come from Shotokan (though I suspect some strong Goju-ryu influence). There's also influence from Judo, and likely some form Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido.

Actually, I liked your website. It distinguishes your conceptual-ism from other schools who just adopt a particular TMA regimen, which is the common case. I believe your arts provide a higher level of technical sophistication compared to the popular TMAs. That, however, can be a double-edged sword.

On a closing note, we have a 1st Degree Black-belt at our dojo who cleans up at tournaments. He has trained boxing. And I suspect his boxing training is responsible to some large measure. The boxing supplement, however, does not speak to the low to mediocre talent often present @ TMA tournaments. Much because of like that thread on the Muay Thai guys going @ it in the ring. People can't resist the change to beat the other guy, show what they can do. No way trained properly.

I was talking one day w that 1st degree black-belt and I mentioned my stance was boxing was a lesser art than karate. He told me how effective his boxing was against his tournament competitors. Then he added, "Boxing skill tops out; with karate there is no limit."

 

[ShotoNoob]

The website isn't much help - Nihon Goshin Aikido isn't well-known, so doesn't usually provide much insight. NGA is a relatively new (1940's), moderately traditional art. The base comes from Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (arguably, from the Jujutsu, not the Aikijujutsu). The strikes ostensibly come from Shotokan (though I suspect some strong Goju-ryu influence). There's also influence from Judo, and likely some form Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido.

This sounds pretty involved. My karate style is much simpler, at a glance.

I took a quick peek. MMA here in the USA likes to believe it's the progenitor of mixed martial arts. Or Bruce Lee. Japanese TMA masters took up this cause way before, as you art proves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was talking one day w that 1st degree black-belt and I mentioned my stance was boxing was a lesser art than karate. He told me how effective his boxing was against his tournament competitors. Then he added, "Boxing skill tops out; with karate there is no limit."

"Lesser" by what measure, though?

And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This sounds pretty involved. My karate style is much simpler, at a glance.

I took a quick peek. MMA here in the USA likes to believe it's the progenitor of mixed martial arts. Or Bruce Lee. Japanese TMA masters took up this cause way before, as you art proves.

Combining styles is nothing new. Most folks involved in MMA don't have any illusion that it is. Most that I know who are in MMA (either competing or training with competitors, or just training at a gym that fits the model) recognize the base arts as what they train. Most folks who train TMA don't cross-train, but that's mostly because most of them aren't committing a lot of time. I'm an outlier, and I'm still essentially a "hobbyist". It's something I do on the side. So, when many folks talk about what "TMA" is, they refer to the most common type of student - which is a semi-committed hobbyist.

 

[ShotoNoob]

"Lesser" by what measure, though?

Now that's a question worth exploring.

And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.

Well, the other guy, as you called him, is a legit in my book karate black-belt. And what's more he trains both boxing and karate. And what's more he's winning @ tournaments. IMO, all that makes for a decent starting point.

The bolded statement you made of course is true. Because nothing is absolute. No one can reach perfection. No method is unlimited practically speaking.

Where the Black-belt gets it and you don't, is how we view the problem statement. You find exceptions, where we find liberation. The Black-Belt and I differ because he cross-trained boxing, he made the judgment that doing so would be of profit to him. He went on to apply boxing technique, and so on @ formal karate tournaments and he said it helped him win. He was winning tournaments. Boxing in my book is a waste of time.

Where the Black-belt and me are the same. We are looking at ideals. Ideals based on principles, martial principles. And our study we came out that the principles (not techniques per se) of traditional karate provide no limit to accomplishment relatively speaking, compared to the principles of the "sweet science."

He felt boxing allowed for faster, more practical progress in fighting skill. Traditional karate takes longer, more effort over time and so over the same initial time frame of boxing, karate skills would be lower, less. As time wears on, however, traditional karate crosses and eclipses the training & skill that boxing can provide. This is because of the inherently different nature of the two training regimens.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now that's a question worth exploring.




Well, the other guy, as you called him, is a legit in my book karate black-belt. And what's more he trains both boxing and karate. And what's more he's winning @ tournaments. IMO, all that makes for a decent starting point.

The bolded statement you made of course is true. Because nothing is absolute. No one can reach perfection. No method is unlimited practically speaking.

Where the Black-belt gets it and you don't, is how we view the problem statement. You find exceptions, where we find liberation. The Black-Belt and I differ because he cross-trained boxing, he made the judgment that doing so would be of profit to him. He went on to apply boxing technique, and so on @ formal karate tournaments and he said it helped him win. He was winning tournaments. Boxing in my book is a waste of time.

Where the Black-belt and me are the same. We are looking at ideals. Ideals based on principles, martial principles. And our study we came out that the principles (not techniques per se) of traditional karate provide no limit to accomplishment relatively speaking, compared to the principles of the "sweet science."

He felt boxing allowed for faster, more practical progress in fighting skill. Traditional karate takes longer, more effort over time and so over the same initial time frame of boxing, karate skills would be lower, less. As time wears on, however, traditional karate crosses and eclipses the training & skill that boxing can provide. This is because of the inherently different nature of the two training regimens.

So, where are the limits in boxing that don't exist in Karate?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Combining styles is nothing new. Most folks involved in MMA don't have any illusion that it is. Most that I know who are in MMA (either competing or training with competitors, or just training at a gym that fits the model) recognize the base arts as what they train.

Well GPS, I also think you are in a circle of more dedicated, and seriously vested practitioners compared to the commercial MMA competitors I'm acquainted with. It's not that commercial MMA competitors dont want to do well, or train hard, it's the depth of their thinking on how they approach martial arts.

Most folks who train TMA don't cross-train, but that's mostly because most of them aren't committing a lot of time. I'm an outlier, and I'm still essentially a "hobbyist". It's something I do on the side. So, when many folks talk about what "TMA" is, they refer to the most common type of student - which is a semi-committed hobbyist.

On the time investment, right. The TMA program is designed for, accommodates the 'usual, practical' schedule of everyday folks. I myself, have trained up to 8 hours a days, say five days a week. Other times, it's put aside. TMA is not my life.

 

[ShotoNoob]

So, where are the limits in boxing that don't exist in Karate?

Well since I'm so incompetent, nothing I say will be of any use.

ONE: Let me preface this with we are getting at this over the internet. That is a barrier at some point. I stated that before.

TWO: One has to define martial arts. TMA has a definition and boxing has a definition. I believe the TMA definition is comprehensive. The traditional karate definition is the more comprehensive than boxing, but not the most sophisticated among TMA. Okinawan karates' definition is more sophisticated than the Japanese or Korean karates as a general rule.

Once you get to the kung fu's, now you are really getting comprehensive. And among kung fu, there's a whole hierarchy of sophistication.

So in all of that, the Japanese traditional karate offshoot I practice is pretty basic TMA. What separates and distinguishes traditional karate from Tiger "Dumb" Thai, and boxing, is how body, mind & spirit are developed through the training, particularly one's mental strengths. I've reflected this in my gibberish posts as some posters have called them.

And that's okay.

 

[ShotoNoob]

"Lesser" by what measure, though?

And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.

The black-belt (other guy) didn't go into a lot of specifics. We kinda had a philosophical meeting of the minds.

Heres' a brief illustration of the limits of boxing.
Ronda Rousey looking crisp on a heavy bag
2,609 views

Federico Mateu
Published on May 7, 2014

Ronda Rousey, once lauded as top WMMA star, flamed completely out, now gone from MMA forever. Why? In my book this is brainless.

Now you or someone could come back and say with a Floyd Mayweather bag work video. Where you would be wrong is that I already covered that by stipulating to the successes of our Dojo's 1st Degree Black-belt cleaning up at karate tournaments. Boxing works and CAN outdo karate. Happens most of the time, let's say.

The issue though, is what is the potential of traditional karate compared to boxing, with both trained towards their potential. So now we are back to defining, assessing, ascribing the potential underlying both arts. And to do so competently, we have to examine principles. We can't just look to a supposition or working conclusion like your resistance training. Or mixing / cross triaging techniques from numerous styles.

And so the noob has given you the conceptual game plan. Follow on on next post.

 

[ShotoNoob]

"Lesser" by what measure, though?

And to the other guy's comment, I don't agree. There are limits for humans, and Karate is subject to them, too.

Now, I can take issue with this guy. I can say I'm more sophisticated based on what I see here. He's doing, however, analysis. He's thinking about the whole picture (not suggesting you aren't).
Revealing Fake Martial Arts... Is board breaking relevant to REAL fighting?
130,714 views

Jermaine Andre
Published on Jun 4, 2016

He's talking about confidence (I don't think of board breaking that way, I'm sure many do gain confidence from board breaking.). Then, however, he goes on with the mechanics of how to successfully break the board, He's on his way. He's pointing people into the right direction.

He says it's not about being strong (he has huge arms), its' about how you apply that strength. There is a process. At one point he is deliberately hitting the board and not breaking it. Then he hits the board and deliberately breaks it. Then he concludes that this is part of the training. And that there are other parts. And they all have to work together.

The problem in answering how traditional martial arts excels with this video is that the protagonist is so strong, most likely he could break a board without any training or good technique. So lets' look @ the weaker sex to demonstrate.

Euros 2016: Female Power Breaking
11,243 views

Taekwon-Do Euros
Published on Aug 3, 2016

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Female Power breaking decisive moments in European Championships 2016.

Women as a general rule do not equate with the physical strength of men. Their muscle mass is less, their muscle density is less, their bones are lighter and less dense. As a generality, not a sports medicine study.

These Female TKD Black-Belts are at a European Board Breaking Championship. Black-belts at a Continental championship. Not Sally from the dojang. See some of the dismal failures. Oh, TMA doesn't work, TMA critics complain. Boxers hitting the heavy bag develop power. True, that works, can work very well. Here's a comprehensive way to look at board breaking.

Scenario 1: You have weak body mechanics; the board won't break. Some of our Female TKD Black-belts.

Scenario 2: You have good body mechanics; the board can or will break. Our "Mr. ARMS" in my previous post, for simple sake.

Scenario 3: You have good body mechanics powered by strong mental discipline; the board will always break.

And there is the spirit on top of that.

Boxing I look at as training good body mechanics, primarily. So a well conditioned boxer can probably punch break the standard boards here. Traditional karate, however, starts by training body mechanics, then progresses to mental strength over the body in a highly disciplined way.

This isn't black and white, of course. You can have mentally disciplined boxers. But not like karate. The way karate training exercises the body & mind is fundamentally different. And thats's if you understand that and don't screw it up.

When we talk about training the mind, that's an intangible. When we are talking about the mind exercising such complete control over and with the body, that's intangible principle. And so difficult to empirically see, to evaluate, to practice knowingly.

The reason TMA fails in MMA, or is under-represented in MMA is because TMA as most people train is physically centered. With that mindset, boxing is better. Boxing is faster to learn and is more practical to use. Same with Muay Thai. And that's not to say attaining high level boxing skill is doing physical drills, the physical program.

Further investigation, one has to go to the dojo, learn from instructors, learn the manual, study the curriculum. Research online, etc. There's a process by which TMA trains. Why it does what it does. And its' way more sophisticated than Tiger Muay Thai.

For Review: What qualities relative to the other Female TKD Black-belt competitors, does the winning champion exude or represent? She is the example to learn from. How much is good body mechanics, how much mental strength is the driving force behind that whole body strength, we can't know for sure from a video over the 'net.

 

[ShotoNoob]

So, where are the limits in boxing that don't exist in Karate?

JKA KIHON TECHNIQUES
4,074 views

Ulysse Karasira Sibo
Published on Apr 14, 2018

So what do you see when you watch this video of traditional karate training in its pure form?

Here's what I see.
Second Degree Board Breaking: ITF TKD
10,479 views

tkdfitness
Published on Dec 12, 2015

How much is good body mechanics, how much is mental strength, how much is the mental strength driving the body mechanics;? that's for the individual practitioner to answer of traditional karate to answer for themselves. She's no physical powerhouse though, can't ascribe her constant success at differing & challenging set ups for that.