Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[Gerry Seymour]

it is a concept. Not a reflection on your karate friends.

It was a generalization - I was presenting some experience counter to it.

 

[Vincent]

It is about training with honest responses.

I heard that Anthony Bourdain was a BJJ student, but this was my first time seeing him in action. Thanks for posting the video, and for your response.

 

[drop bear]

I heard that Anthony Bourdain was a BJJ student, but this was my first time seeing him in action. Thanks for posting the video, and for your response.

I used him because he is old and new to martial arts.

So honest feedback is not the domain of twenty something jocks.

 

[drop bear]

It was a generalization - I was presenting some experience counter to it.

Your experience of random karate friends who can defend takedowns to an unspecified level.

How exactly does that counter anything?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your experience of random karate friends who can defend takedowns to an unspecified level.

How exactly does that counter anything?

They were, in fact, pretty random (some folks I knew well, a few I had recently met, etc.). It precisely counters the generalization that Karate folks are "compliant falldown monkeys" who fall down without being actually thrown or knocked down. It actually has nothing to do with takedown defense (not sure where you came up with that), but with the fact that you actually have to take them down or knock them down. On some of them, that's easy (failure of defense). On others, it's pretty hard to do. I don't recall running into one (except relative beginners) who would just fall down without you doing some work, except during odd drills.

 

[drop bear]

They were, in fact, pretty random (some folks I knew well, a few I had recently met, etc.). It precisely counters the generalization that Karate folks are "compliant falldown monkeys" who fall down without being actually thrown or knocked down. It actually has nothing to do with takedown defense (not sure where you came up with that), but with the fact that you actually have to take them down or knock them down. On some of them, that's easy (failure of defense). On others, it's pretty hard to do. I don't recall running into one (except relative beginners) who would just fall down without you doing some work, except during odd drills.

So you went for a walk and it was flat. So the earth is flat.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you went for a walk and it was flat. So the earth is flat.

So I went for a walk and it was flat, so the Earth has flat places. Might be a lot of them, or only the one I found, but it's certainly not all hilly.

 

[drop bear]

So I went for a walk and it was flat, so the Earth has flat places. Might be a lot of them, or only the one I found, but it's certainly not all hilly.

Wow. Really?

And this is everything that is wrong with martial arts.

 

[Buka]

Wow. Really?

And this is everything that is wrong with martial arts.[/QUOTE

You lost me. What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Buka]

Really, Bear, what are you talking about?

 

[drop bear]

Really, Bear, what are you talking about?

Ok. I put forwards a concept. Now I am happy to have my concept proven wrong. But "I throw some karate guys around" just doesn't really cut it.

The issue is this is so commonly used as a martial arts verification. As well as an actual argument for flat earth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wow. Really?

And this is everything that is wrong with martial arts.

LOL. What about my post didn't follow logic? All I stated was the observation - if some part of the Earth is not hilly, then it follows that it cannot all be hilly. How much is "not hilly" is still up for discovery, but we've established that some of it is not.

EDIT: And to the point, if everywhere I walk, I find nothing but flatland, it is a reasonable hypothesis that much of the Earth is "not hilly". If I go somewhere else and find lots of hills and mountains, then I don't suddenly decide there's no flat space on Earth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. I put forwards a concept. Now I am happy to have my concept proven wrong. But "I throw some karate guys around" just doesn't really cut it.

The issue is this is so commonly used as a martial arts verification. As well as an actual argument for flat earth.

You missed the entire point, DB, so maybe I didn't make it clearly. I don't recall running into a Karate practitioner who was a "falldown monkey" by any definition, other than rank beginners. That means my experience with them doesn't match your generalization of them.

I never said none were, but that it seems an unfair generalization. If it wasn't meant as a generalization, then I entirely misread your point.

 

[drop bear]

You missed the entire point, DB, so maybe I didn't make it clearly. I don't recall running into a Karate practitioner who was a "falldown monkey" by any definition, other than rank beginners. That means my experience with them doesn't match your generalization of them.

I never said none were, but that it seems an unfair generalization. If it wasn't meant as a generalization, then I entirely misread your point.

Ok. so if i throw a ball at a target that gets progressively further away. I will get better at throwing a ball.

Is that a generalisation?

If is throw a ball at a target that progressively gets closer. I will hit the target more often and so appear better at throwing a ball.

Is that a generalisation?

If I trained karate in a manner where the techniques become progressively easier to execute due to the partner being trained to kick punch and fall more appropriately. Would I appear to be better at karate while in fact be a falldown monkey.

Is that a generalisation.

Who were the karate guys you fought?

What did the fight look like? Anything like this for example?

or was it like this?

Would you know if they were fall down monkeys or not?

Is the earth flat or round?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. so if i throw a ball at a target that gets progressively further away. I will get better at throwing a ball.

Is that a generalisation?

If is throw a ball at a target that progressively gets closer. I will hit the target more often and so appear better at throwing a ball.

Is that a generalisation?

If I trained karate in a manner where the techniques become progressively easier to execute due to the partner being trained to kick punch and fall more appropriately. Would I appear to be better at karate while in fact be a falldown monkey.

Is that a generalisation.

Who were the karate guys you fought?

What did the fight look like? Anything like this for example?

or was it like this?

Would you know if they were fall down monkeys or not?

Is the earth flat or round?

You just gotta argue sometimes.

 

[drop bear]

You just gotta argue sometimes.

Yeah, yeah. Us round earthers are poo poo heads.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, yeah. Us round earthers are poo poo heads.

You're still trying to draw that analogy? I've clarified your error on that. It's like you said the Earth is all hills, and I told you I've run into a bunch of plains. Then you decided I said the Earth isn't round. At best, that is an appeal to extremes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, yeah. Us round earthers are poo poo heads.

You know it's only flat earthers that use the term 'round earther'?

 

[lianxi]

Wow - 14 years this thread has been going. Still new here, but would like to advise those with decades of experience to be careful when advising beginners against that first Karate or TKD class just because you may have progressed so far beyond that stage. That first class and phase of learning teaches so much - including the use of forms which teach structure, coordination and especially intention - making the hands and feet do what you want them to do. I knew, first as a white belt, then as a yellow belt in my first year with Uechi master Ihor Rymaruk's Karate class that I wasn't capable of using what I'd learn to fight with it. But I felt that I had learned how to stand and guard, center myself, pay attention and be ready for at least the idea of an opponent - that self-confidence wasn't delusion that I was now a skilled fighter - it was a genuine sense of accomplishment earned as a result of training hard to master movements with my mind and body - it was a solid beginning for me and here I am 33 years later still in love with martial arts. There are a lot of senior martial artists here - please remember where you began when advising those who are new to martial arts and asking for guidance - don't blast them with 30 years of experience all at once. For beginners, it's perfectly OK to start with traditional martial arts training and their forms - all forms are codified systems of martial arts mechanics and movement passed on to us and certainly should be considered as having some inherent value.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

My Shorin Ryu Sensei is retired SWAT, and I promise you, he used karate to good effect during his law enforcement career. He and I were discussing Krav Maga one time, as I trained in it for a few months, and he was of the opinion that Krav Maga is effective, but not unique in its effectiveness. He argued that the effective practitioners of the traditional martial arts employ similar principles as those taught in the more modern, military-based defensive tactics curricula.