karate and self defense?

[KageMusha]

Iron Leopard just reminded me of something I wanted to ask, but kept forgetting to. How many of you guys train at schools that don't use protective gear for sparring/kumite? If you do use it, what do you use? And I don't mean brand. For those that don't use any, have there ever been any leagal problems within the school as far as someone getting hurt? And, if you don't wear any, do the children who train there use it?

I am asking in this threed instead of starting a new one because I am wondering what everyones opinon on useing/not useing it is as far as self-defense. Is it better to not use it because you don't on the street, but now you have to pull punches a little (at least to the head and face), or is it better to use some so that you can feel the accual impact when you strike someone. As you all know, hitting a moveing target whether you land it or they block it, can change your body posture much differantly than pulling your punch/kick.

Just curious.

 

[exile]

Iron Leopard just reminded me of something I wanted to ask, but kept forgetting to. How many of you guys train at schools that don't use protective gear for sparring/kumite? If you do use it, what do you use? And I don't mean brand. For those that don't use any, have there ever been any leagal problems within the school as far as someone getting hurt? And, if you don't wear any, do the children who train there use it?

We don't use it. We train close-in techs with controlled delivery. Training under those conditions has been... well, character-building, I suppose: when you can't apply a tech full force, even though you have a nice opening and know that you could enforce compliance, it's very good for your soul to be able to force yourself to refrain from doing any of that!

I am asking in this threed instead of starting a new one because I am wondering what everyones opinon on useing/not useing it is as far as self-defense. Is it better to not use it because you don't on the street, but now you have to pull punches a little (at least to the head and face), or is it better to use some so that you can feel the accual impact when you strike someone. As you all know, hitting a moveing target whether you land it or they block it, can change your body posture much differantly than pulling your punch/kick.
Just curious.

Good question! I think, if I had my druthers, I'd use a certain amount of protective gear and go full out, CQ apps of TKD techs (which, as we train them, are pretty close to Shotokan—Song Moo Kwan was described by Ro Pyung Chik, its founder, as `Korean Shotokan' and that's how we train it.).

What I try to do instead is swing a heavy bag and deliver various strikes to it at different points in the swing, and try to learn to adjust my response so I'm always in balance no matter which way the bag is moving, or how fast, when I strike it. It's not a true substitute, but it's a step in the right direction, in terms of the `moving target' problem you bring up.

 

[Iron Leopard]

I always required it so that there were no injuries especially for children. remember if someone gets injured no matter how tough they say they are..a large percentage of the time they don't return to train with you.

And to clarify ..what I require is cups for the guys, caged headgear and mouth pieces and gloves with the fingers incased. I don't believe in chest protectors because not wearing them A. toughens you up and B. ensures that some self control is learned, which I feel is very important. I also don't require the shin pads. or shoes.

at higher levels like brown or black especially there is kumite without any gear and almost always the combinations and techniques are practiced without any gear as well.

 

[cstanley]

There sure are a lot of non-karate folks trying to talk knowledgably about karate. American kempo and its derivatives have absolutely nothing to do with Okinawan or Japanese karate.

 

[KageMusha]

There sure are a lot of non-karate folks trying to talk knowledgably about karate. American kempo and its derivatives have absolutely nothing to do with Okinawan or Japanese karate.

Was their a point to that? I thought this was a topic of karate and self defense. Did I mis-read the threed title?

Anyways, Iron Leopard, I agree with you 100%. I am curious about one thing though. You have them use caged headgears, but no foot protection. I would imagine kicking a metal cage would hurt a lot. Or do you not use high kicks?

 

[Iron Leopard]

KageMusha they wear dojo shoes or bare feet if they want. I find it's a matter of control and conditioning for the kicker of not hurting their foot. Also its generally plastic caged gear...a little easier on the toes. Open head gear is fine but from training and teaching there is always someone who is going to get smashed in the nose....always.

 

[searcher]

The level of gear I require depends on the type of sparring we are doing. If we are going heavier contact then we wear more gear, which is what we do most of the time. Our gear varies from nothing but handwraps to as much as chest protectors, boxing gloves, boxing style head gear, elbow and knee pads. As well as many variations in between.

The level of protective gear also depands on what the makeup of the class is. If it is kids they always wear gear. The 18-36 YO males often wear less.

Remember that gear was not really designed to protect the one getting hit, but to protect the striker. It allowed for the puncher to strike harder without sustaining a high level fo damage to their own body.

 

[twendkata71]

In the novice levels the students wear hand and foot pads during sparring in our schools. Many wear the cotton hand pands, some wear the foam dipped pads, the foam dipped pads don't last very long and are quite expensive. We do not wear chest protectors, that is unless some of the black belts are doing full contact. I find them to be uncomfortable. At advanced levels many times we don't wear pads. We are more used to contact and have better control over techniques. I have sparred with Kyokushinkai people and that is an experience that I enjoy, but takes longer to recover now that I am getting older.
Many schools wear all of the protective gear, I would imagine to keep their insurance costs down.

 

[jtbdad]

I use to train in Judo with Gene Hershey. Sensei Hershey was always fond of saying that the reason that Judo-ka (I don't know if he was actually using that term correctly or not) do well in physical confrontations is because usually after 6 months of training they are likely to be much better conditioned than anyone who would start a street brawl/ Bar fight etc. I never went very far in Judo but he was right they train hard. I believe that this is probably true for most Karate-ka. If for no other reason the conditioning gives one an advantage. Additionally Martial Artists learn to control their emotions, and develop significant body and environmental awareness. Whether the actual techniques are appropriate for a specific situation or not does not negate these other advantages which derive from our training.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

My problem with bunkai is that the opponent comes at you with a karate technique, not a street technique. Kata is the core of karate, so you have to keep that in mind when doing your kata as if you were learning modern street applications for it. Karate was designed to kill or be killed and is 100% for the street and a very effective form of self defense. I'd go as far as to say it's more street oriented than boxing or wrestling, not necessarily more effective, but is more meant for life and death. That's the kime (focus) and sanchin (attitude) you must posess while training. It's the instructor, not the art. How many other correct cliches can I throw in here? The bottom line is that your skills will be the way you train them to be, mind and body. Karate was designed to kill but not every move is lethal or meant to come to a lethal conlusion. I've used karate to defend myself on more than one occasion and it has served me far better than I thought it would. I was even able to stop short of serious, crippling injury and apply a "talk-some-sense-into-him-lock" rather than a finishing elbow. You have to be very, VERY fast and I don't think a lot of dojos give a proper impression of just how fast you have to be. Many of the practitioners are fast enough, but don't move as fast as they can or might not understand what's necessary in a street situation. Let the muscle memory take car of itself, exploit the enemy's weaknesses and have the proper kime and sanchin and your karate will be effective for self defense. Remember that effectiveness does not guarantee success and you have no time to "think" or choose what to do. You have to do it. Fast. Make it count.

 

[chinto]

My problem with bunkai is that the opponent comes at you with a karate technique, not a street technique. Kata is the core of karate, so you have to keep that in mind when doing your kata as if you were learning modern street applications for it. Karate was designed to kill or be killed and is 100% for the street and a very effective form of self defense. I'd go as far as to say it's more street oriented than boxing or wrestling, not necessarily more effective, but is more meant for life and death. That's the kime (focus) and sanchin (attitude) you must posess while training. It's the instructor, not the art. How many other correct cliches can I throw in here? The bottom line is that your skills will be the way you train them to be, mind and body. Karate was designed to kill but not every move is lethal or meant to come to a lethal conlusion. I've used karate to defend myself on more than one occasion and it has served me far better than I thought it would. I was even able to stop short of serious, crippling injury and apply a "talk-some-sense-into-him-lock" rather than a finishing elbow. You have to be very, VERY fast and I don't think a lot of dojos give a proper impression of just how fast you have to be. Many of the practitioners are fast enough, but don't move as fast as they can or might not understand what's necessary in a street situation. Let the muscle memory take car of itself, exploit the enemy's weaknesses and have the proper kime and sanchin and your karate will be effective for self defense. Remember that effectiveness does not guarantee success and you have no time to "think" or choose what to do. You have to do it. Fast. Make it count.

I have to agree to a lot of that. I also have to say that it does depend on the dojo as to if the student is being trained in a way that they have an idea of how fast they must be on the street, and if they ever have street techniques like round house punches or hooks and such used in bunkai. I am a student at a dojo that does teach mainly for self defence rather then sport and teaches a very traditional okinawan style. so we practice liner and circuler techniques and their use in defence and offence. but there are people out there who are not tought that way. used properly and trained well and properly karate is very very effecient and effective for self defence.

 

[Callandor]

Karate is no good. It is the person using what they know that makes it good. with that said. Any self defence art That a person takes the time to train hard push there limits understand What they can do That person will get good at it. The ones that just get that 2 to 3 hours in a week will see slow improvement And never really get it. You have to not only train hard in class but should train at some point every day if you want to get good.

Hello, Robert. I think it would be more correct to say that Karate, in itself, is good. It is up to the practitioner to tap it's full potential or to use it in an ineffective manner. Just my 2 centavos. Peace!

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I have to agree to a lot of that. I also have to say that it does depend on the dojo as to if the student is being trained in a way that they have an idea of how fast they must be on the street, and if they ever have street techniques like round house punches or hooks and such used in bunkai. I am a student at a dojo that does teach mainly for self defence rather then sport and teaches a very traditional okinawan style. so we practice liner and circuler techniques and their use in defence and offence. but there are people out there who are not tought that way. used properly and trained well and properly karate is very very effecient and effective for self defence.

You can't teach someone what it's going to be like on the street. At best, you can teach them what it might be like. Nothing compares. Even being in a crisis situation or disaster where your life is in danger isn't the same. When another sentient conciousness turns malevolent and violent on you it's very scary. It's no "act of god" anymore. This person has made a choice to hurt you (I assume they are trying to take my life) and you need to make it more expensive than it's worth to him. No hesitation and mercy has it's place once the fight is won.

 

[chinto]

You can't teach someone what it's going to be like on the street. At best, you can teach them what it might be like. Nothing compares. Even being in a crisis situation or disaster where your life is in danger isn't the same. When another sentient conciousness turns malevolent and violent on you it's very scary. It's no "act of god" anymore. This person has made a choice to hurt you (I assume they are trying to take my life) and you need to make it more expensive than it's worth to him. No hesitation and mercy has it's place once the fight is won.

yes that is true, and we are tought that if it is on the street it is a situation of dispatch the attacker as fast and efficently as you can. worry about the cops and other after. but if its a 10 year old kid your responce is not going to be the same provably as if its a 17 year old hood with say 2 of his/her buddys. but yes there is a lot of fear, at least if you have any brains at all there is a huge amount of fear. so you train to concentrate and disiplin your mind as well as your body so you do not panic and or let fear controle you. that is actualy one of the benifits of proper study of kata, but stress and fear are a fact of any altercation. in the end if you end up in one on the street you will have to function. its that simple. and that is the same for any one regardless of style. remember there is no mat, no lights, no rules and no refferee to step in, so I do not beleave that there is any advantage to something like muay thai that way. all you can do is try and get them to think about the fact that there will be great fear and pain, and put a lot of stress in other ways as you can in the dojo.

 

[seasoned]

You can't teach someone what it's going to be like on the street. At best, you can teach them what it might be like. Nothing compares. Even being in a crisis situation or disaster where your life is in danger isn't the same. When another sentient conciousness turns malevolent and violent on you it's very scary. It's no "act of god" anymore. This person has made a choice to hurt you (I assume they are trying to take my life) and you need to make it more expensive than it's worth to him. No hesitation and mercy has it's place once the fight is won.

Very well put, if I may add. Once you have looked into the eyes of death you have (2) choices, (1) pee your pants or stand and deliver.

 

[chinto]

Very well put, if I may add. Once you have looked into the eyes of death you have (2) choices, (1) pee your pants or stand and deliver.

yes that is basicly true. and when you are there you will find out what you will do. some of us have had that unfortunent experiance to find ourselves in that situation. For myself, I will stand and deliver, but if you have never been in that situation, I sugest that you consider what you would do, and try to imagin it, and to harden your mind to the idea that if it does happen you will either win or you may die.

unfortunently it is true that if you fight you may die, but if you are attacked it is no longer you choice at that time. the choice was yours before you found yourself in jeperdy, so be awear and perhaps you will see it comeing and remove yourself from that situation before it happens.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I've formed a habit. Any time I walk into a room I start drawing scenarios about how I would deal with this person, that person, closest weapon, closest rout to the door. I draw many scenarios so I have an idea of what to do. Some things you can plan on. Location of pool-tables/furniture, size of the room, how far the exit is, which guys who will back him up are already seated etc.
For the things you can't plan on you can still make an educated guess. Use the elements. Kobudo, I think, is an important part of learning self defense (and strengthening the wrists). They will give you a much better handle on improvised weapons.

 

[chinto]

I've formed a habit. Any time I walk into a room I start drawing scenarios about how I would deal with this person, that person, closest weapon, closest rout to the door. I draw many scenarios so I have an idea of what to do. Some things you can plan on. Location of pool-tables/furniture, size of the room, how far the exit is, which guys who will back him up are already seated etc.
For the things you can't plan on you can still make an educated guess. Use the elements. Kobudo, I think, is an important part of learning self defense (and strengthening the wrists). They will give you a much better handle on improvised weapons.

yep, haveing found myself in that unfortunent position of fight or die once, well i do the same. You walk in and imediatly feel the 'room vibe' so to speak, and then assess who is or may be a threat. Then you look for improvised weapons and egress and also 'high ground' and other posible tactical advantages. not obvous or even compleatly concious some times but you do it. you also look at who might back the attacker and other tactical things too like you said. It is in short basicly good awearness, and that will hopefully keep me from haveing to deal with an altercation if I can detect it comeing and get out first.

 

[Martin h]

My problem with bunkai is that the opponent comes at you with a karate technique, not a street technique.

I, most energetically, do NOT agree with this. Some time ago I would have, but not now. The difference is that I started looking at Iain Abernethys works on bunkai. Bunkai that do NOT start with the opponent coming at you with martial art techniques, but actually is based on realistic situations and no-nonsense applications to counter street techniques.

I highly recommend that you take a look at his work. It is a real eyeopener.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I imagine you do agree with me. I've trained in chito-ryu. Bunkai was done with karate techniques there. I'm sure Mr. Abernathy has some great training methods.