Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[drop bear]

Another thing I was pondering...

Karate is a physical activity. Just because one takes up the activity doesn’t mean they have to go all out with it. Think of basketball...

Some people set up a hoop in the driveway and are content just shooting the ball. Some are content just playing with their kids.

Some people like to play pick-up in the park. Some people join an age group rec league and play once or twice a week.

They enjoy playing without any pressure to get good at it. They’re getting exercise, socializing, having fun, and it gives them something to look forward to doing.

Then you’ve got people who’s life seems to revolve around the game. They’re out playing, they’re doing stuff outside the game like conditioning, watching video, attending seminars/camps, etc. They want to be the best they can be. They may be trying to get a scholarship, into a good school, coaching, pro contract, etc.

No matter which way you look at it, it’s still basketball. There’s no wrong or right. The guy shooting hoops with his kids or playing once or twice a week isn’t wasting his time. The guy who’s made it his life’s passion isn’t wasting his time either. The serious guy doesn’t have a leg to stand on if he tells the guy who’s playing pick-up he’s wasting his time and not to bother because it’s not real basketball.

Think of any other physical activity, and it’s the same thing; golf, tennis, baseball, soccer, etc. MA’s no different. You’ve got people who do it to pass time, people who are trying to reach a very difficult goal, and everything in between.

Just because we take it more seriously than say 90% of the people out there doesn’t mean much. And to be honest, very few of us in that group would have the motivation and means to become an elite pro fighter. And from that group, how many are physically gifted enough to be?

Karate and everything else is different things to different people.

Is that what they tell you at karate school though?

If I did social backyard basketball for twenty years would I get destroyed by a guy who has trained at a serious level for six months?

I think there are a lot more people in karate who would actually like to be good at karate if they could. And are getting short changed by the culture.

I mean in my school I can watch a guy train harder, do the right things and become better than me. And from there I can make the informed choice as to what level I want to progress.

In these schools I can't. They are deliberately hidden.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is that what they tell you at karate school though?

If I did social backyard basketball for twenty years would I get destroyed by a guy who has trained at a serious level for six months?

I think there are a lot more people in karate who would actually like to be good at karate if they could. And are getting short changed by the culture.

I mean in my school I can watch a guy train harder, do the right things and become better than me. And from there I can make the informed choice as to what level I want to progress.

In these schools I can't. They are deliberately hidden.

Deliberately?

 

[JR 137]

Is that what they tell you at karate school though?

If I did social backyard basketball for twenty years would I get destroyed by a guy who has trained at a serious level for six months?

I think there are a lot more people in karate who would actually like to be good at karate if they could. And are getting short changed by the culture.

I mean in my school I can watch a guy train harder, do the right things and become better than me. And from there I can make the informed choice as to what level I want to progress.

In these schools I can't. They are deliberately hidden.

People aren’t that naive. Some are, but very few genuinely are. After you’ve been there for a little while, you start to see that what you’re doing doesn’t really equate to fighting. Non-contact, stopping for points, “punches don’t score” (yes, that’s an actual line my uncle was told at a TKD McDojo when he was throwing punches), etc. The ones who’ve been roughed up once or twice outside the dojo start to see it. The ones who want to actually learn how to fight start to see it. The ones who are there to pass time, socialize, get in shape, learn an art form for the sake of it, etc. start to see it too. Only the completely naive don’t see the B S after a while. The difference between those that truly want to fight and those who don’t is the ones who don’t want to fight are having fun with it, so it’s all good.

Maybe I’m giving people too much credit. I doubt it, but maybe.

 

[hoshin1600]

I would flip this around. Everyone knows what an MMA or boxing gym does and how they train.
But these people didn't join there did they? They didn't join an MMA gym because that's not what they wanted. They may have even showed up looked around and said ...nope not for me.

 

[drop bear]

Deliberately?

Yep. Systems set up to obscure any sort of real results seem deliberate to me.

You could come in and spar my coach on your first day. Make a judgement whether he is **** or legit.

 

[drop bear]

I would flip this around. Everyone knows what an MMA or boxing gym does and how they train.
But these people didn't join there did they? They didn't join an MMA gym because that's not what they wanted. They may have even showed up looked around and said ...nope not for me.

Why would you when you can get a better result for less effort.

MMA is fine for sport. But in self defence you want to be able to kill 3 oponants in a street fight. Not spend 15 minutes trading with one guy.

 

[drop bear]

People aren’t that naive. Some are, but very few genuinely are. After you’ve been there for a little while, you start to see that what you’re doing doesn’t really equate to fighting. Non-contact, stopping for points, “punches don’t score” (yes, that’s an actual line my uncle was told at a TKD McDojo when he was throwing punches), etc. The ones who’ve been roughed up once or twice outside the dojo start to see it. The ones who want to actually learn how to fight start to see it. The ones who are there to pass time, socialize, get in shape, learn an art form for the sake of it, etc. start to see it too. Only the completely naive don’t see the B S after a while. The difference between those that truly want to fight and those who don’t is the ones who don’t want to fight are having fun with it, so it’s all good.

Maybe I’m giving people too much credit. I doubt it, but maybe.

Do I have to start putting up videos of what people genuinely believe works?

 

[TimoS]

Do I have to start putting up videos of what people genuinely believe works?

Might be interesting to see what weird stuff you’ve come across. I know there’s plenty of FBSD (fantasy based self defense) out there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep. Systems set up to obscure any sort of real results seem deliberate to me.

You could come in and spar my coach on your first day. Make a judgement whether he is **** or legit.

I’m not aware of a system deliberately set up to obscure that. Most that obscure it do so by lack of understanding, or because they mistake skill and ability (elderly dude with extreme skill might have little remaining fighting ability).

Oh, and it’s not the coach/instructor I want to spar. I don’t actually care how good he is at fighting, since I’m not hiring him to fight.

 

[oftheherd1]

I’m not aware of a system deliberately set up to obscure that. Most that obscure it do so by lack of understanding, or because they mistake skill and ability (elderly dude with extreme skill might have little remaining fighting ability).

Oh, and it’s not the coach/instructor I want to spar. I don’t actually care how good he is at fighting, since I’m not hiring him to fight.

I agree except for your first sentence

where our old friend Mr. Dillman is shown. BTW, if the thread on fasting is still open the URL should go there with instructions to look about 1:09, and again a little later.

But some martial arts certainly don't understand a few of the moves in katas, as I have mentioned before.

 

[Buka]

I only met George Dillman once, went to a seminar he was teaching. I wanted to see for myself what he was all about.

It was a whole lot of fun, very entertaining. But at the same time, he was an extremely knowledgeable Martial Artist. Really vast knowledge. And sort of a caricature of a carnival barker. Kind of a big, fuzzy, teddy bear carnival barker.

But that boy could break down Kata, I'll tell you that. And talk? Oh, man, that boy could talk.

I'm wondering how many others that are considered frauds in our world are also as knowledgeable. And I wonder how much money George Dillman has made in the Arts.

I wonder a lot of things I guess.

 

[hoshin1600]

I only met George Dillman once, went to a seminar he was teaching. I wanted to see for myself what he was all about.

It was a whole lot of fun, very entertaining. But at the same time, he was an extremely knowledgeable Martial Artist. Really vast knowledge. And sort of a caricature of a carnival barker. Kind of a big, fuzzy, teddy bear carnival barker.

But that boy could break down Kata, I'll tell you that. And talk? Oh, man, that boy could talk.

I'm wondering how many others that are considered frauds in our world are also as knowledgeable. And I wonder how much money George Dillman has made in the Arts.

I wonder a lot of things I guess.

i think Dillman was a really good martial artist back in the day. at some point he went down a rabbit hole with no return. i wonder if he regrets it now.

 

[Buka]

i think Dillman was a really good martial artist back in the day. at some point he went down a rabbit hole with no return. i wonder if he regrets it now.

I don't know, maybe he does. He didn't seem like the type of Martial Artists that let anything bother him, though. Water off a ducks back kind of thing.

He was one of the more interesting characters I've met in the arts. I'd even go to another of his seminars if he had one out here. The entertainment value alone, no disrespect intended, would be worth whatever the cost.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree except for your first sentence

where our old friend Mr. Dillman is shown. BTW, if the thread on fasting is still open the URL should go there with instructions to look about 1:09, and again a little later.

But some martial arts certainly don't understand a few of the moves in katas, as I have mentioned before.

You think there’s something in his system deliberately set up to obscure results? Possible he actually believes his hype, instead?

 

[drop bear]

I’m not aware of a system deliberately set up to obscure that. Most that obscure it do so by lack of understanding, or because they mistake skill and ability (elderly dude with extreme skill might have little remaining fighting ability).

Oh, and it’s not the coach/instructor I want to spar. I don’t actually care how good he is at fighting, since I’m not hiring him to fight.

Good point. We should go off a demo. (Because that is not deliberately obscuring someone's ability)

 

[drop bear]

I don't know, maybe he does. He didn't seem like the type of Martial Artists that let anything bother him, though. Water off a ducks back kind of thing.

He was one of the more interesting characters I've met in the arts. I'd even go to another of his seminars if he had one out here. The entertainment value alone, no disrespect intended, would be worth whatever the cost.

Didn't they used to sucker punch people though?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good point. We should go off a demo. (Because that is not deliberately obscuring someone's ability)

Straw man. Nice try, though.

 

[drop bear]

Straw man. Nice try, though.

Because a demo is not a deliberate act to obscure the ability of a martial artist.

Mabye i should have said grading instead.

Please explain how this is either not obscuring martial arts ability or how it is not deliberate.

I mean is this deliberate then?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because a demo is not a deliberate act to obscure the ability of a martial artist.

Mabye i should have said grading instead.

Please explain how this is either not obscuring martial arts ability or how it is not deliberate.

I mean is this deliberate then?

I don't think most folks realize when they're not really testing live ability. Remember that "deliberately" was what I was questioning. I'm not sure it happens so deliberately as you think.

And demos aren't an attempt to obscure, but an attempt to wow. It's an attempt to show off. I've never liked them, but the intent - so far as I can tell - isn't what you claimed earlier. Oh, and you are drifting in your argument. You've apparently had a mood swing and decided it's time for another argument, and are pursuing the attempt with me where you can. I'm not biting.

 

[DaveB]

The article is garbage.

It's based on a series of old stereotypes and on a mindless practitioner, and on a lack of understanding of the point of the old-fashioned traditional training methods.

Karate basics are excellent self defence tools as they are natural macro movements that will stay with you when adrenaline dump kills your fine motor skill.
Stances are actually elements of the strikes in freeze frame for teaching purposes. Weight distribution and balance are essential to striking and generally useful in fighting.

Essentially the author is whining that karate starts you off building coordination and moves on to technique refinement before focusing on fighting.

Yet I've encountered so many rbsd and combat sportsmen whose biggest weaknesses are technical. Bottom line you need both and any school can neglect any part.

That being said for kids I would always go traditional martial arts over combat sports if I had to pick. (preference would be do both).

Modern karate has moved on in a lot of cases from the stereotypes he lists.
Most importantly the relevant factor is not the art but the training. Nothing stops karate schools using alive training and so many do.

If you are advising parents your best bet is to tell them what to look out for, not what art to train.