Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[JR 137]

i think the posts made by Buka, Gerry and JR are spot on.
@Vincent i would propose that your point of view is 100% true and accurate according to your own view of karate. i would then ask you to define karate. Describe it to me. i am 100% sure your definition of karate,does not match mine , Buka. Gerry or JR's description or what karate looks like for them. JR hit the nail on the head with the comment that karate is meant to be trained for life. from a young youth until the day you die. the image of karate you hold in your mind is only one version of what karate can be. karate is more a vessel, a container rather then the contents.
i see comments and view points like your own very often and sometimes it gets under my skin but as i age i just have to nod and say ok if you say so.
karate is like a good Vietnamese soup. some will say the soup is too spicy, well then dont put sriracha sauce in it. some will say its too sour,, well then dont put the lime in it and put in more sugar. but its too sweet, too fishy, too many vegetables. dont like beef,,, well then put in sea food, dont like sea food,, put in beef balls or chicken. karate is the base broth and bowl. people complain about the flavor because they forget its their soup!!!! your depending on someone else to spoon feed you! the chef/ teacher cant please everyone. the teacher does his best to present the flavor MOST people will enjoy, young to old. if you are disappointed in the flavor, take the responsibility upon yourself to get the flavor you like. its not the bowls fault, its up to you.

Great points. Karate is different things to different people. To which I’ll add, it’s also different things to each individual. People’s priorities change. People’s abilities change. My focus today at almost 42 isn’t what it was at 22. Some things change, and some things are the same. If I numbered my priorities from 1-5 in my 20s, the order of those would be different today. I’d say 3 or 4 of those priorities would be on both lists, but it’s doubtful they’d be in the same order.

 

[JR 137]

Another thing I was pondering...

Karate is a physical activity. Just because one takes up the activity doesn’t mean they have to go all out with it. Think of basketball...

Some people set up a hoop in the driveway and are content just shooting the ball. Some are content just playing with their kids.

Some people like to play pick-up in the park. Some people join an age group rec league and play once or twice a week.

They enjoy playing without any pressure to get good at it. They’re getting exercise, socializing, having fun, and it gives them something to look forward to doing.

Then you’ve got people who’s life seems to revolve around the game. They’re out playing, they’re doing stuff outside the game like conditioning, watching video, attending seminars/camps, etc. They want to be the best they can be. They may be trying to get a scholarship, into a good school, coaching, pro contract, etc.

No matter which way you look at it, it’s still basketball. There’s no wrong or right. The guy shooting hoops with his kids or playing once or twice a week isn’t wasting his time. The guy who’s made it his life’s passion isn’t wasting his time either. The serious guy doesn’t have a leg to stand on if he tells the guy who’s playing pick-up he’s wasting his time and not to bother because it’s not real basketball.

Think of any other physical activity, and it’s the same thing; golf, tennis, baseball, soccer, etc. MA’s no different. You’ve got people who do it to pass time, people who are trying to reach a very difficult goal, and everything in between.

Just because we take it more seriously than say 90% of the people out there doesn’t mean much. And to be honest, very few of us in that group would have the motivation and means to become an elite pro fighter. And from that group, how many are physically gifted enough to be?

Karate and everything else is different things to different people.

 

[mrt2]

Another thing I was pondering...



Think of any other physical activity, and it’s the same thing; golf, tennis, baseball, soccer, etc. MA’s no different. You’ve got people who do it to pass time, people who are trying to reach a very difficult goal, and everything in between.

Just because we take it more seriously than say 90% of the people out there doesn’t mean much. And to be honest, very few of us in that group would have the motivation and means to become an elite pro fighter. And from that group, how many are physically gifted enough to be?

Karate and everything else is different things to different people.

That is all true, except for the whole belt system. Ideally, the belt should mean something in terms of ability. But does it? Watching, say, black belts, or even colored belts over the last few months, I would say no, it does not.

So, if traditional MA were like, say, yoga, I would agree with you 100%. As it is, I agree with you 90%, with the caveat that the belt system is a sort of gatekeeper, but merely achieving, say a purple, brown, or even black belt shows a certain competence in curriculum, but there is a big variation in ability among people wearing the same color belt.

 

[mrt2]

Excellent post, and I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. I won’t rehash what I agree and disagree with, as the previous 2 posters have done a better job of stating exactly how I feel. I’ll just add a little bit to it...

A lot of current karate (and other striking arts) students aren’t “serious” students in the sense that their main objective is self-defense/fighting. They’re there far more for the other benefits TMA have been pushing in ads - self discipline, wellness, etc. Nothing wrong with that. IMO they’re there more for the side effects than the originally intended purpose. Kind of like doctors prescribing a drug “off-label” (think Wellbutrin to quit smoking rather than for its intended anti-depression).

One other point is my situation and many others I train alongside in my dojo - we’ve been there, done that when we were younger. I trained bare knuckle in my 20s. I wrestled through elementary and high school. The day in and day out pounding isn’t as easy to recover from in my early 40s and beyond as it was back then. Sure, I could still do it, but for how long? I re-started karate a few years ago after an almost 15 year hiatus. When I was looking at dojos, it was between a Kyokushin dojo and Seido. I knew I wouldn’t be in Kyokushin for a long time; maybe a few years at best until my body stopped recovering from it. Seido comes from Kyokushin, but the contact level is less. The curricula are quite similar (Seido’s founder, Tadashi Nakamura, was sent to the US by Mas Oyama to start and spread Kyokushin here).

The hard contact and training are great. IMO everyone should have some experience with it. It teaches things that IMO can’t be learned by any other means. But there’s a limit; there’s a balance. Sure there’s people that have trained like that for decades, but INO they’re the exception and not the rule. I know so many people who trained like that for a long time and can’t train anything anymore due to the toll it took. I know too many guys who’ve had hips and shoulders replaced and various other problems way too early in life due to it.

Karate is supposed to be a lifelong study. I went the lighter contact route to ensure it will be. Most of the older people in my dojo have done the same. Most came from Kyokushin. You can easily spot the ones who came from there and similar systems from the ones who didn’t. Not from a technical nor aesthetic standpoint, but from shear fighting ability. It’s not because the ones who didn’t weren’t taught right; it’s because they’ve never been hit really hard and haven’t really learned that lesson IMO.

This is a good point. When I returned to MA after a long hiatus, I considered joining an MMA or BJJ gym, but I decided at 52 and overweight, it wasn't for me. But I am concerned that traditional martial arts is becoming too much the realm of women, children, and old men. When I did Tang Soo Do back in the early 80s, I was not an especially athletic kid. But there were older teens and adults who were, and sparring against those guys regularly, even if it was just light contact, made me better at Tang Soo Do. I am wondering if, maybe, with more of the cohort just looking to learn how to fight going over to MMA, if maybe TMA is not as good as it could be because of that.

 

[JR 137]

That is all true, except for the whole belt system. Ideally, the belt should mean something in terms of ability. But does it? Watching, say, black belts, or even colored belts over the last few months, I would say no, it does not.

So, if traditional MA were like, say, yoga, I would agree with you 100%. As it is, I agree with you 90%, with the caveat that the belt system is a sort of gatekeeper, but merely achieving, say a purple, brown, or even black belt shows a certain competence in curriculum, but there is a big variation in ability among people wearing the same color belt.

Yup. But something to keep in mind is that a belt color/rank has MINIMUM levels of proficiency, not maximum. There’s “good enough” for a given rank, and not “too good” for that same rank.

Yes, it can be a gatekeeper when it’s done right (ie not sold). But it’s certainly not fool-proof. If it were solely an indicator of ability, then every rank would have to be able to beat every rank below it. So every first dan in the club would have to be able to beat every brown belt and below. Every second dan would have to be able to beat every 1st dan and below. That, my friend, is an impossible proposition.

There are a few systems that are somewhat close to this ideal until you get to the highest ranks where there’s a minimum age and the promotions are based on service to the art. Think BJJ and Judo. Up until you get to full instructor level ranks and above, you’re promoted on ability (no solely, as there’s exceptions due to age, disability, etc). You don’t get very many legitimate Judo black belts who are getting thrown around by lower ranks. And if they are, they almost certainly weren’t back when they earned that rank, ie the 80 year old judo black belt wasn’t always 80.

I look around and see some people ranked above me who I’m a better fighter than. And I see some people below me who’d lay a hurtin’ on me. Neither one make my rank better nor worse. They’ve got a saying in yoga (thanks @AngryHobbit) : don’t worry about what’s going on on someone else’s mat; worry about what’s going on on your mat. If you’re just interested in rank, everyone else’s rank means a lot. If you’re just interested in improving, it’s a non issue.

 

[mrt2]

Yup. But something to keep in mind is that a belt color/rank has MINIMUM levels of proficiency, not maximum. There’s “good enough” for a given rank, and not “too good” for that same rank.

Yes, it can be a gatekeeper when it’s done right (ie not sold). But it’s certainly not fool-proof. If it were solely an indicator of ability, then every rank would have to be able to beat every rank below it. So every first dan in the club would have to be able to beat every brown belt and below. Every second dan would have to be able to beat every 1st dan and below. That, my friend, is an impossible proposition.

There are a few systems that are somewhat close to this ideal until you get to the highest ranks where there’s a minimum age and the promotions are based on service to the art. Think BJJ and Judo. Up until you get to full instructor level ranks and above, you’re promoted on ability (no solely, as there’s exceptions due to age, disability, etc). You don’t get very many legitimate Judo black belts who are getting thrown around by lower ranks. And if they are, they almost certainly weren’t back when they earned that rank, ie the 80 year old judo black belt wasn’t always 80.

I look around and see some people ranked above me who I’m a better fighter than. And I see some people below me who’d lay a hurtin’ on me. Neither one make my rank better nor worse. They’ve got a saying in yoga (thanks @AngryHobbit) : don’t worry about what’s going on on someone else’s mat; worry about what’s going on on your mat. If you’re just interested in rank, everyone else’s rank means a lot. If you’re just interested in improving, it’s a non issue.

Yup, minimum proficiency.

 

[JR 137]

This is a good point. When I returned to MA after a long hiatus, I considered joining an MMA or BJJ gym, but I decided at 52 and overweight, it wasn't for me. But I am concerned that traditional martial arts is becoming too much the realm of women, children, and old men. When I did Tang Soo Do back in the early 80s, I was not an especially athletic kid. But there were older teens and adults who were, and sparring against those guys regularly, even if it was just light contact, made me better at Tang Soo Do. I am wondering if, maybe, with more of the cohort just looking to learn how to fight going over to MMA, if maybe TMA is not as good as it could be because of that.

MMA has taken some of the “fighters” out of TMA. Just looking at averages, the more dojos out there, the smaller the individual schools; there’s only so many people interested.

Many MA have become a sport in a sense for kids. Look at youth sports; travel leagues, scholastic sports, etc. Kids get cut. Kids sit the bench. Kids have to compete. There’s none of that in MA if they don’t want to compete. Everyone “plays” and no one sits the bench. If they’re not a good athlete, so what? They’re not going to lose. They’re not going to stand around in the outfield because the coach knows the ball won’t come to them. Maybe it’ll take a little while longer to promote. Teammates aren’t going to make fun of them for being the worst player on the team. Teammates aren’t going to not pass them the ball.

It’s the ultimate “sport” for kids who aren’t good enough. And I say that with all good intentions and no malice.

Sure there’s excellent kid athletes in MA. But they’re typically not just going to the dojo. And there’s some great kid athletes in MA who aren’t as good at other sports or don’t have the desire to do anything else. But from what I’ve seen, most kids in MA are the kids who would struggle with team sports and/or competitive sports.

 

[hoshin1600]

This is a good point. When I returned to MA after a long hiatus, I considered joining an MMA or BJJ gym, but I decided at 52 and overweight, it wasn't for me. But I am concerned that traditional martial arts is becoming too much the realm of women, children, and old men. When I did Tang Soo Do back in the early 80s, I was not an especially athletic kid. But there were older teens and adults who were, and sparring against those guys regularly, even if it was just light contact, made me better at Tang Soo Do. I am wondering if, maybe, with more of the cohort just looking to learn how to fight going over to MMA, if maybe TMA is not as good as it could be because of that.

if TMA "is not as good as it could be" its because the individual is not working hard enough. part of the problem is that in the 1980's there was a big push toward teaching kids and this continues today. expectations are lowered to be "inclusive" and geared toward the lowest common denominator. it is not a unique problem for TMA. we see this in the military ,we see it in law enforcement. its what led to the fall of the Roman Empire. This battle is playing itself out right now with the debate of women in the US military. why is the standard for enlisting men 71 push ups but women is only 42 push ups? men need to run 2 miles in 13 min and women need to run in 15 :36 min. professional sports will not have this problem because they couldnt give two craps about inclusivity and political correctness, the aim is to win. recreational martial arts wont work that hard. trust me when i say we are already seeing the lowering of standards in BJJ. i remember teaching classes back in the 80's when a few students went to the owner and complained i was having the class do too many push ups and the exercises were too hard. i was told to make it easier. no one ever went easier on me and even if they wanted to, i wouldnt allow that of myself. a dojo is nothing more than a group of people who get together to train. what kind of people do you train with?
it's time people stop putting blame on TMA, the style, the teacher , the dojo and start taking responsibility for their own training.

ok im done my rant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is all true, except for the whole belt system. Ideally, the belt should mean something in terms of ability. But does it? Watching, say, black belts, or even colored belts over the last few months, I would say no, it does not.

So, if traditional MA were like, say, yoga, I would agree with you 100%. As it is, I agree with you 90%, with the caveat that the belt system is a sort of gatekeeper, but merely achieving, say a purple, brown, or even black belt shows a certain competence in curriculum, but there is a big variation in ability among people wearing the same color belt.

The belt only means precisely what those involved decide it should mean. If a group decides the requirement for a fuscia belt is to be able to recite a poem an spar for 30 seconds against a boxer, that’s what it means. I’m being facetious, of course, but the point is important. What I think a belt should mean really isn’t important to anyone but my students.

 

[mrt2]

if TMA "is not as good as it could be" its because the individual is not working hard enough. part of the problem is that in the 1980's there was a big push toward teaching kids and this continues today. expectations are lowered to be "inclusive" and geared toward the lowest common denominator. it is not a unique problem for TMA. we see this in the military ,we see it in law enforcement. its what led to the fall of the Roman Empire. This battle is playing itself out right now with the debate of women in the US military. why is the standard for enlisting men 71 push ups but women is only 42 push ups? men need to run 2 miles in 13 min and women need to run in 15 :36 min. professional sports will not have this problem because they couldnt give two craps about inclusivity and political correctness, the aim is to win. recreational martial arts wont work that hard. trust me when i say we are already seeing the lowering of standards in BJJ. i remember teaching classes back in the 80's when a few students went to the owner and complained i was having the class do too many push ups and the exercises were too hard. i was told to make it easier. no one ever went easier on me and even if they wanted to, i wouldnt allow that of myself. a dojo is nothing more than a group of people who get together to train. what kind of people do you train with?
it's time people stop putting blame on TMA, the style, the teacher , the dojo and start taking responsibility for their own training.

ok im done my rant.

Well, this is true. I see this a my current TKD place. The master and his son both try to push the kids to do more, to punch and kick with some snap and technique, and to remember the curriculum. It really shouldn't be too hard. But some kids struggle. Frankly, since their marketing materials suggest that TKD will help instill discipline, focus, and other good stuff, it shouldn't surprise them when they attract students who have problems concentrating. In this regard, I think they, and other places that market to kids are over promising.

When I did MA as a kid, it helped me tremendously with all those things. Confidence, fitness, focus, discipline and with a caveat, ability to fight. All of it. But I started at 14, and I never trained with younger children. And, my former instructors never lowered their standards for my 14 or 15 year old self.

I think it comes down to maturity and motivation. At 14, I really was motivated to improve myself, and while I had some notion of kicking some bully's butt, that never actually came to pass. The only fight I got into in high school played out nothing like my Chuck Norris fantasy version. It was ugly, I got hit in the face, and the fight ended with me and the other guy wrestling around on the ground. After that, I learned my lesson. Sparring in a dojang, or at a tournament is nothing like a street fight. And it motivated me to train harder, and to concentrate more, and to be more situationally aware. (and not to go around acting like an A$$hole, and to not hang around with or engage with A$$holes). Anyhow, it must have worked. I thought after that fight, I might have to fight again, but it never came to pass. Because of my focus on training, I got a lot stronger, and lost a lot of weight, and generally carried myself more confidently.

But that is all an aside. IMO (and again, just my perception. ) for a lot of younger kids in TKD, especially the ones younger than 10 or 12, maybe 1 in 5 has the right motivation and mindset, and maybe 1 in 5 or even 2 in 5 should probably quit because they suck and they show no real desire to get better, but don't tell the parents that. Of the rest, I would say it is a big question mark. Some of them try, but they are kids. Maybe some of them will get better as their minds and bodies develop, and maybe they won't. But it is a delicate conversation to tell a parent after they just paid $1,200 a year that their little son or daughter isn't very good. I can't say that is a conversation I would want to have with a parent after I took their money.

 

[Flying Crane]

But I am concerned that traditional martial arts is becoming too much the realm of women, children, and old men.

Would you please elaborate on what you are getting at here? This sounds like a pretty hefty judgement you are making on others, and I’m sure that is not what you meant...

 

[JR 137]

Would you please elaborate on what you are getting at here? This sounds like a pretty hefty judgement you are making on others, and I’m sure that is not what you meant...

I left that alone because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Flying Crane]

I left that alone because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

So am I.

 

[oftheherd1]

But I am concerned that traditional martial arts is becoming too much the realm of women, children, and old men.

Would you please elaborate on what you are getting at here? This sounds like a pretty hefty judgement you are making on others, and I’m sure that is not what you meant...

Yep, we either need clarification on what TMA is or what "women, children, and old men" is. Because I am one of them. I really want to know where I stand.

Especially since to my knowledge, TMA has always had contingents of old men, children, and women. Help me please.

 

[mrt2]

Many MA have become a sport in a sense for kids. Look at youth sports; travel leagues, scholastic sports, etc. Kids get cut. Kids sit the bench. Kids have to compete. There’s none of that in MA if they don’t want to compete. Everyone “plays” and no one sits the bench. If they’re not a good athlete, so what? They’re not going to lose. They’re not going to stand around in the outfield because the coach knows the ball won’t come to them. Maybe it’ll take a little while longer to promote. Teammates aren’t going to make fun of them for being the worst player on the team. Teammates aren’t going to not pass them the ball.

It’s the ultimate “sport” for kids who aren’t good enough. And I say that with all good intentions and no malice.

Sure there’s excellent kid athletes in MA. But they’re typically not just going to the dojo. And there’s some great kid athletes in MA who aren’t as good at other sports or don’t have the desire to do anything else. But from what I’ve seen, most kids in MA are the kids who would struggle with team sports and/or competitive sports.

This is all true, even back in the day. I was that kid, who wasn't all that talented athletically, and particularly hated the jock culture (and most of the jocks) at my high school.

 

[mrt2]

Yep, we either need clarification on what TMA is or what "women, children, and old men" is. Because I am one of them. I really want to know where I stand.

Especially since to my knowledge, TMA has always had contingents of old men, children, and women. Help me please.

At 52, I consider myself part of the old man contingent at my dojang. I am not trying to disrespect anybody. Maybe the huge cohort of children are the next gen of good fighters.

 

[oftheherd1]

At 52, I consider myself part of the old man contingent at my dojang. I am not trying to disrespect anybody. Maybe the huge cohort of children are the next gen of good fighters.

Age wise you are a couple of years my junior. Not that it means anything. You may well be senior in rank. My highest certificate is 2nd Dan. I have studied some beyond that but I will never go higher as my GM passed away some years ago.

...
Maybe the huge cohort of children are the next gen of good fighters.

I've known some very good women students and fighters as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

Age wise you are a couple of years my junior. Not that it means anything. You may well be senior in rank. My highest certificate is 2nd Dan. I have studied some beyond that but I will never go higher as my GM passed away some years ago.



I've known some very good women students and fighters as well.

One of my best teachers is a woman, and as such the school had a much higher than average percentage of women students than other schools. A lot of skilled classmates I had, in that group.

 

[JR 137]

One of my best teachers is a woman, and as such the school had a much higher than average percentage of women students than other schools. A lot of skilled classmates I had, in that group.

My CI’s wife is the co-owner and technically the co-CI of our dojo. I say technically because she hasn’t taught in a few years due to a string of injuries and illness.

She comes from a tough as a coffin nail era. When she started, it was bare knuckle. And there were very, very few women. The women who were there tended to get it worse than the men, because most guys in the dojo had the attitude that women didn’t belong and had to prove they were worthy of training with men. All the women I know who stuck around during that era are a true force to be reckoned with.

Thankfully that way of thinking is just about gone. That’s definitely not the tone Nakamura set nor tolerated, but it definitely happened. And it happened pretty much everywhere. If you see a woman who’s been around since the 60s-80s, I’m sure they’ll tell you how it was.

 

[drop bear]

If I could become a ufc fighter without really trying I would. If I can have a six pack by taking a pill I would.

Karate in the way it is complained about allows me these achievements without the work. And the only price I have to pay is I never use it outside my safe space.

But the fighting ability is a lie.

Now luckily this lie about fighting skill is also supported by lies about self defence. In that you never actually need to use it you just have to say you did. Or even say what you would have done. And everyone will clap you on the back and tell you how great a martial artist you are. And remember never using your skill is the greatest expression of that skill.

And for most people that is the primary use of martial arts.

But if your primary use of martial arts is maybe actual self defence. Say you really expect to win a fight against someone who wants to hurt you. I would suggest fighting guys who understand how fighting works.

Which is not anywhere near as fun as that black belt.