Sojobo, all you are doing is confirming what I said and think, that you disagree and dislike everything I post. You made it personal which is fine, I have broad shoulders. I won't be responding to you after this, you have made it very clear what you think about me. So it's goodnight and goodbye from me.
Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense
- Thread starter Ceicei
- Start date
Steve
Mostly Harmless
No, it's not.
Yes, it is.
TKDFromDMV_Student
Yellow Belt
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Reality Based Self Defense. Kind of like a much more serious form of Kato attacking Inspector Clouseau.
KabutoKouji
Green Belt
'I've spoken at length to many boxing, kali, Brazilian Jujitsu and muaythai instructors and they all agree, karate produces a tenseness and rigidity that seems almost irreversible'
'Ive spoken with X about Y and they say Y isnt as good' - that's sealed it then
'Ive spoken with X about Y and they say Y isnt as good' - that's sealed it then
This is the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Some people started posting it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting it forever, just because this is the thread that never....The thread that refuses to die
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I will say there's some validity to the statement. I've trained alongside and taught people who trained in various styles of Karate. There's a higher incidence of (what seems to me) odd tension among those who trained exclusively in Karate, than among any other art, or among the untrained. Mind you, I don't think it's irreversible, nor is it universal. The best Karateka I've worked with were neither tense nor rigid.
KabutoKouji
Green Belt
you do have a point, the stop start of the patterns themselves probably leads to this - I come from ITF TKD background and even though it is probably a little less rigid (with the 'sine-wave' in there), there is still a lot of Shotokan influence in it I believe. When I try to practice my Tan Tui, my instructors are always saying 'this isn't Karate' to me as I do tend to over emphasize the 'stops' at the end of movements.
Perhaps that's it. I have a lot of experience with two Shotokan Karatedo practitioners. One is a current student, who trained Shotokan as his primary/only art for several years. He has more stiffness than any student I can recall, though he learns the movements better than most. The other was a training partner who was training Shotokan and NGA simultaneously (and Iaido for a while). He never got that rigidity, likely because of his NGA training. He was never as fluid as most others at his level, but his quick, decisive movements more than make up for that (he is now shodan in both, I believe).
KabutoKouji
Green Belt
yeah when we are practicing TaiJiJuan Pushing Hands I also find it pretty hard to relax and 'soften' a bit
I definitely agree with the many reasons why Karate's rigid approach, despite its strong focus and strength, would fail most people in a 'real fight'. There are many arts that might serve a defender better than Karate - perhaps wing chun, krav maga and others. Simply being a master of forms and techniques in a class environment could certainly fail to work out for most Karate practitioners in the chaos that happens in a real altercation with a crazed attacker. Then I think of my first teacher Uechi master Ihor Rymaruk, now around 70, who practices only Karate. This not a man that anyone, anywhere is going to easily hurt or subdue.
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Psilent Knight
Blue Belt
"Holy resurrected thread Batman!!"
While I do understand where the author of the article is coming from and has some valid points, I think that overall his conclusions are severely misguided. If we were to place an elephant inside of a room and allowed uninformed outsiders to only get a glimpse of it through a keyhole then their respective perceptions can be misguided. If every time I looked through the keyhole and only caught a glimpse of the elephants body or torso I may think that it is a rhinoceros that is behind that door. If another person only manages to catch a glimpse of the elephant's trunk every time they glance through the keyhole then perhaps they would think that it's some kind of large snake that is behind that door.
It's in a similar fashion that I think that the author of this article is misguided. He's going by the karateka who either train for sport and/or self development or a way of life (in essence, martial ART). THE PROBLEM IS that most of the karateka who train in one or both of those aspects also CLAIM and BELIEVE that they train for self defense as well when nothing can be further from the truth after close examination.
For me it is quite simple, if you want to be able to utilize karate or any fighting art for self protection then you would have to train it strictly for self protection. I simply cannot see how one can possibly train in sport and realistic self protection at the same time. You're either training in sport or self protection or Art. It is my personal observation and experiences that the majority of karate schools claim to teach and train in self defense when in reality they are teaching and training a sport/tournament version of karate. It seems that almost no one in the karate world is willing or able to see this situation for what it really is and call it for what it really is. This creates a not so great reputation surrounding karate and causes people like the author of the article to dismiss karate entirely (though under faulty premises).
I do think that one can train in either sport or realistic self defense and still practice Art at the same time if one is willing to look at their training as having a side benefit of art, self growth/development, way of life, way of self expression, etc.
But my stance is that karate can be very, very effective for self protection/self defense IF it is truly, truly, truly trained for such and only for such.
My two cents for what it's worth.
Take Care Everyone and Have A Great One,
Osu!
While I do understand where the author of the article is coming from and has some valid points, I think that overall his conclusions are severely misguided. If we were to place an elephant inside of a room and allowed uninformed outsiders to only get a glimpse of it through a keyhole then their respective perceptions can be misguided. If every time I looked through the keyhole and only caught a glimpse of the elephants body or torso I may think that it is a rhinoceros that is behind that door. If another person only manages to catch a glimpse of the elephant's trunk every time they glance through the keyhole then perhaps they would think that it's some kind of large snake that is behind that door.
It's in a similar fashion that I think that the author of this article is misguided. He's going by the karateka who either train for sport and/or self development or a way of life (in essence, martial ART). THE PROBLEM IS that most of the karateka who train in one or both of those aspects also CLAIM and BELIEVE that they train for self defense as well when nothing can be further from the truth after close examination.
For me it is quite simple, if you want to be able to utilize karate or any fighting art for self protection then you would have to train it strictly for self protection. I simply cannot see how one can possibly train in sport and realistic self protection at the same time. You're either training in sport or self protection or Art. It is my personal observation and experiences that the majority of karate schools claim to teach and train in self defense when in reality they are teaching and training a sport/tournament version of karate. It seems that almost no one in the karate world is willing or able to see this situation for what it really is and call it for what it really is. This creates a not so great reputation surrounding karate and causes people like the author of the article to dismiss karate entirely (though under faulty premises).
I do think that one can train in either sport or realistic self defense and still practice Art at the same time if one is willing to look at their training as having a side benefit of art, self growth/development, way of life, way of self expression, etc.
But my stance is that karate can be very, very effective for self protection/self defense IF it is truly, truly, truly trained for such and only for such.
My two cents for what it's worth.
Take Care Everyone and Have A Great One,
Osu!
Martial_Kumite
Green Belt
What I think is that karate can be effective, if one practices the application of it in "real world" type scenarios. If you just have a foundation, then that is all you have. You have to build something off of that foundation for it to be effective. It also depends on the person themselves. Saying that MA X or Y is ineffective is making a broad statement.
Psilent Knight
Blue Belt
@Martial_Kumite I completely agree with you. Especially the fact that at the end of the day it comes down to the individual fighter. Great post.
Take Care and Have A Great Day,
Osu!
Take Care and Have A Great Day,
Osu!
I have heard the following comment:
If a Karate guy invents a car, that car will have square tires. It will turn as 1, 2, 3, 4 and 1, 2, 3, 4, ...
The
- Karate has too many square.
- CMA has too many circles.
IMO, both are a bit too extreme. I like the middle approach. some smooth circles followed by some sharp edges, and then followed by more smooth circles and sharp edges. I can't rest with all sharp edges. I'll fall to sleep with too many circles.
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