Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[Dirty Dog]

"Underlings" was pgsmith's term. Sojobo's use in his response was, I think, a little tongue in cheek. I notice you're not taking pgsmith to task for the three paragraph long ad hominem. Is it possible you are taking sides, and maybe even making things worse?

Are you operating under the misconception that I (or any other staff member) are not allowed to have and/or express opinions, or agree with/disagree with expressed opinions and views?

Is it possible you are taking sides, and maybe even making things worse?

 

[Tez3]

Really...? Life is too short not to get it.

Humorous and sarcastic doesn't slag off respected instructors including the three Japanese ones who brought Wado to the UK, as well as senior instructors now.
For me Wado is the perfect style, it doesn't lack anything and I have the pleasure of knowing Iain Abernethy, he's humble, friendly and knowledgeable, he disrespects no one and no style, as an instructor he's patient, calm and will work in the student's best interest. He is a gentleman.

 

[Sojobo]

Ladies and Gents,

Great chat and I apologise if my posts have been misinterpreted as too abrupt or 'up myself'.

I'm off to the land of 'fakey-ned' as I have to leave at the 'sparrows' tomorrow to travel down to our groups training session and squad selection.

Ill be off line for a few hours - be specific and logical - not emotional.

 

[Sojobo]

Humorous and sarcastic doesn't slag off respected instructors including the three Japanese ones who brought Wado to the UK, as well as senior instructors now.
For me Wado is the perfect style, it doesn't lack anything and I have the pleasure of knowing Iain Abernethy, he's humble, friendly and knowledgeable, he disrespects no one and no style, as an instructor he's patient, calm and will work in the student's best interest. He is a gentleman.

Chick,
I didn't 'slag off' any of the instructors that brought Wado to the UK.

 

[Steve]

Are you operating under the misconception that I (or any other staff member) are not allowed to have and/or express opinions, or agree with/disagree with expressed opinions and views?

Is it possible you are taking sides, and maybe even making things worse?

And now you're deflecting. Ooookay. I notice you're not addressing the questions, but are instead being clever. I think you're out of line on this one, Dirty Dog.

But since you asked, I don't know what to think of sojobo. I don't have a good sense of whether or how long he's trained. He's a wild card. But I also don't see him doing anything that is more or less rude than the treatment he's received. In fact, I think his responses have been mostly good natured. Ultimately, he hasn't said anything that leads me to believe he's less credible than, say, you or anyone else on this forum. Not yet, at least.

All that leads to taking sides. I don't think I've taken one yet. I think you have, and it's clouding your better judgment, and leading you to suffer from confirmation bias against this post and in favor of some others.

And also since you brought it up, I completely expect you and other moderators to have and express your opinions, but as a leader on this forum, surely you understand that you cannot completely separate your personal views from your official views, and you will always represent the administration, even when posting outside of that. In my opinion, at least.

Am I making things worse? I hope not. That's not my intent, and I'll accept your implicit request that I withdraw. I'll leave it to you guys and just cross my fingers that the thread return to something more interesting.

 

[Sojobo]

Before you go off on one - Chick is a term of endearment where I come from.

 

[Sojobo]

But since you asked, I don't know what to think of sojobo. I don't have a good sense of whether or how long he's trained. He's a wild card. But I also don't see him doing anything that is more or less rude than the treatment he's received. In fact, I think his responses have been mostly good natured. Ultimately, he hasn't said anything that leads me to believe he's less credible than, say, you or anyone else on this forum.

Thank you...

 

[Dirty Dog]

And now you're deflecting. Ooookay. I notice you're not addressing the questions, but are instead being clever.

Forgive me. I thought the answer to your only actual question was self-evident. No, I do not think I am making things worse.
Happy now?

I think you're out of line on this one, Dirty Dog.

You are, of course, entitled to your view. And I won't even scold you for expressing it.

But since you asked, I don't know what to think of sojobo. I don't have a good sense of whether or how long he's trained. He's a wild card.

I don't either. That is why I asked plain and clear questions. For which he declined to provide plain and clear answers.

But I also don't see him doing anything that is more or less rude than the treatment he's received. In fact, I think his responses have been mostly good natured. Ultimately, he hasn't said anything that leads me to believe he's less credible than, say, you or anyone else on this forum. Not yet, at least.

Again, it's a matter of viewpoint. Personally, I think an unwillingness to provide clear answers to clear questions detracts from ones credibility.

If you dropped by a school, and the instructor told you that he knew all about XXXXX but refused to answer the simple question "where did you learn XXXXX?" wouldn't you question their credibility?

There is request, implicit or explicit, that you withdraw.

 

[Sojobo]

Forgive me. I thought the answer to your only actual question was self-evident. No, I do not think I am making things worse.
Happy now?



You are, of course, entitled to your view. And I won't even scold you for expressing it.



I don't either. That is why I asked plain and clear questions. For which he declined to provide plain and clear answers.



Again, it's a matter of viewpoint. Personally, I think an unwillingness to provide clear answers to clear questions detracts from ones credibility.

If you dropped by a school, and the instructor told you that he knew all about XXXXX but refused to answer the simple question "where did you learn XXXXX?" wouldn't you question their credibility?

There is request, implicit or explicit, that you withdraw.

I supplied you with my qualifications / experience!
So you cant work out who I am - that's not the same thing.

 

[Tez3]

Chick,
I didn't 'slag off' any of the instructors that brought Wado to the UK.

You did actually, you said that being straight out of uni they made things worse.

Before you go off on one - Chick is a term of endearment where I come from.

and?

 

[TimoS]

What does any of this bickering have to do with the actual topic?

 

[Steve]

Forgive me. I thought the answer to your only actual question was self-evident. No, I do not think I am making things worse.
Happy now?



You are, of course, entitled to your view. And I won't even scold you for expressing it.



I don't either. That is why I asked plain and clear questions. For which he declined to provide plain and clear answers.



Again, it's a matter of viewpoint. Personally, I think an unwillingness to provide clear answers to clear questions detracts from ones credibility.

If you dropped by a school, and the instructor told you that he knew all about XXXXX but refused to answer the simple question "where did you learn XXXXX?" wouldn't you question their credibility?

There is request, implicit or explicit, that you withdraw.

I'll just speak for myself. If the questions were asked by someone who seems already to have formed an opinion, I'd be a little cagey, as well. You have to admit that when you start drilling someone about their credentials, it's not coming from an open and friendly place.

I've seen you get cagey from time to time, too, when you believe someone is asking a loaded question. Shoot, I asked you a couple of simple questions and you're being incredibly snarky with me.

 

[Tez3]

What does any of this bickering have to do with the actual topic?

That's the problem...... nothing, as I pointed out a couple of times.

 

[jks9199]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
It seems that things are getting rather heated, and I'm seeing style bashing by people within the same style. Isn't that usually reserved to the Wing Chun forum? Perhaps we can rein the attacks and shots in and participate politely and respectfully? Maybe we can do that before points have to be awarded?

Jks9199
Administrator

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Sojobo]

You did actually, you said that being straight out of uni they made things worse.

And if truth be told - they would probably agree.

Most have now evolved.

That's what budo is all about - isn't it?

 

[Steve]

What does any of this bickering have to do with the actual topic?

Good point. I went back and reread the last several pages of this thread, and I will admit I'm very curious to hear more about Wado Ryu Karate, how it relates to koryu arts in Japan, and whether or not self defense was a founding priority for the style.

It also seems that sojobo is implying that bunkai is a sort of reverse engineering of karate, adding things which may not have been part of the style to begin with. I may have this all wrong. But if so, it's a position that will make for some very interesting reading, as people here take bunkai very seriously.

@Sojobo , I hope you actually know what you're talking about. I'll offer just a word of advise. At some point, @Chris Parker will come along and quote every single post you've written, responding to each paragraph in turn. So, if you want it to be something you can read in one sitting, you might consider backing off and waiting for his response. It's already going to be a doozy. Any mention of koryu arts is like a beacon for him. And truly, if you don't know what you're talking about, he's going to eviscerate you, figuratively speaking of course.

 

[Tez3]

It just seemed very simple when I answered someone post, to me if you train karate then you have self defence techniques at your finger tips and if you need them you should use them. Some places just teach things like no touch sparring and kata for the sake of it, I just think if you are training a martial art get the most out of it and learn to defend yourself properly. Regardless of where Wado came from, what it was designed for or even where it's going it has some damn fine self defence which I was taught, teach and am proud of. I love Wado, I love the kata, I love the way the techniques are structured and I love that I have a formidable arsenal of self defence techniques, in fact I love it all.

 

[Steve]

It just seemed very simple when I answered someone post, to me if you train karate then you have self defence techniques at your finger tips and if you need them you should use them. Some places just teach things like no touch sparring and kata for the sake of it, I just think if you are training a martial art get the most out of it and learn to defend yourself properly. Regardless of where Wado came from, what it was designed for or even where it's going it has some damn fine self defence which I was taught, teach and am proud of. I love Wado, I love the kata, I love the way the techniques are structured and I love that I have a formidable arsenal of self defence techniques, in fact I love it all.

I think that, if trained in a realistic manner, there's no doubt that karate is effective in a physical encounter.

However, isn't this contrary to some of the statements on this forum? What do you guys think about the idea that martial arts and self defense are unrelated, and that any overlap is "largely superficial?" There was another thread on the topic of "martial arts vs self defense" a couple of years ago where @Chris Parker said the following:

For the record, my position is going to be yes, unquestioningly, martial arts and self defence are two very different skill sets, contexts, methodologies, requirements, approaches, and more. The similarities are largely superficial, and a degree of potential (albeit almost accidental, frankly) cross-over between the two.

I think that the overlap between self defense and martial arts is worth discussing... specifically this idea that the two are only superficially linked.

 

[pgsmith]

pgsmith.. I have always respected your posts here and other forums - can you specify what post I came over as arrogant? I'm an engineer by trade and dislike generalisations.

I would delve further into it, but I can only access from work, so I don't have the time to get overly specific. I will, however, point out the initial post that put my back up as it came across as arrogant, grandstanding, and dismissive all at the same time. Especially given the fact that nobody here knows who exactly you are, or why you feel qualified to pass this sort of judgment. I also have to point out, being an engineer myself, that this statement that I'm quoting is a gross generalization.

Regarding Wado though this is the problem.

Many of the senior Wado instructors here in the UK (I'm talking 7th and 8th dans) don't get it.

Why, because Wado in the UK is broken and has been for decades.

Fact is - because they don't get it they cling to what is tangible and seemingly self evident.

That sets people down the wrong path with wrong goals and objectives and that's a shame, because Wado is a great art and much much more than a self defence system.

"Underlings" was pgsmith's term. Sojobo's use in his response was, I think, a little tongue in cheek. I notice you're not taking pgsmith to task for the three paragraph long ad hominem. Is it possible you are taking sides, and maybe even making things worse?

Steve,
My post was a heartfelt response to sojobo's initial tone and hijacking of the thread. Please read the thread title if you don't understand. His subsequent posts about the beginnings and purpose of Wado were interesting but had no bearing on the initial discussion, and instead seemed to me to be part of a personal agenda outside of the parameters of the discussion.

Can I offer you some cheese?

 

[Steve]

Steve,
My post was a heartfelt response to sojobo's initial tone and hijacking of the thread. Please read the thread title if you don't understand. His subsequent posts about the beginnings and purpose of Wado were interesting but had no bearing on the initial discussion, and instead seemed to me to be part of a personal agenda outside of the parameters of the discussion.

Can I offer you some cheese?

Nobody's perfect. I think things worked out pretty well in the end. I am genuinely interested in hearing more about Wado Ryu, and whether or not it is a self defense focused art.

Regarding thread drift, it's a funny thing. Sometimes, it's okay. Other times, it's not. I think it's pretty subjective, but I also think it's unavoidable, particularly in a thread that is as lengthy as this one.