TSDTexan
Master of Arts
You are correct in what you said, in reference to the founder's intent and purpose in TKD.
Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense
- Thread starter Ceicei
- Start date
You are correct in what you said, in reference to the founder's intent and purpose in TKD.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Er… others have corrected the TKD aspect, but you realise that your comments are also completely incorrect for Judo as well, yeah? Sure, competitive formats and training methodologies have been implemented in Judo since it's inception, but that's not the same as saying it was "always meant to be (a) sport"… as that was not really the aim or intention of Kano sensei…
This requires understanding the difference… which is not something that is always present…
Hmm… then, honestly, you'd go to your grave wrong. If you're cool with that, no problem… but…
Iaido
Kyudo
Koryu
Jodo
Atarashii Naginata
Kendo
and that's just looking at a brief list of Japanese arts which have no real "self defence" aspect to them whatsoever. Just sayin'….
I am quite happy to go to my grave thinking that.
But, you are correct, Chris. And I should have stated it differently. What I should have said is everyone I've known, trained with and taught, which, of course, is completely different.
Tired_Yeti
Green Belt
Fine. TKD wasn't intended to be only a sport, but that's what it has become and has been that way for decades.
"Re-stomp the groin"
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Again, you're posting from a very limited (and incorrect) view of TKD. There are certainly a lot of TKD practitioners here who do NOT practice or teach TKD only as a sport. I can't quote numbers, but off hand I think the majority of TKD practitioners active on here would fall into this category.
Well I know of one very large organization, and several smaller ones, that don't have any sporting elements whatsoever.
D
Deleted member 34973
Guest
Hmm...I would have to disagree with the OP's assessment. In my personal experience, Karate is a true self defense art. With it, I have defended myself several times with Karate and in my youth, I accepted challenges to prove this line of thinking is incorrect.
I do remember when Karate became geared for tournament and the focus of training was change for such. I believe it was then, that Karate was begining to lose its luster as a self defense program.
At least in that Dojo...the Head Instructor lost 65% of his blackbelts due to that decision. Of course this was 30-40 yrs ago.
I do remember when Karate became geared for tournament and the focus of training was change for such. I believe it was then, that Karate was begining to lose its luster as a self defense program.
At least in that Dojo...the Head Instructor lost 65% of his blackbelts due to that decision. Of course this was 30-40 yrs ago.
Koshiki
Brown Belt
TKD guy reporting in. I don't even know the basic rule-sets of any of the TKD sport-game things, Olympic style, point-sparring, what have you. If I entered a tournament for TKD sparring, I would, I'm sure, be out in the first seconds of the first round.
What I train in may be nominally TKD, but in application I find a lot more affinity with applied Goju Ryu, for example.
Just to back up Dirty Dogs point, I guess that's at least two non-sport TKD guys on here...
EDIT: But also, is this REALLY a 12 year old thread???
A twelve year old thread, twenty two pages of it, yet a traditional Art still lives, still works and still serves people's needs.
Damn straight.
Ademadis
Green Belt
I really enjoy training in Karate for the pseudo-religious aspect that gets shot down in the article...
Also I study while completely understanding that practising karate and self-defence are two completely different things. If it really was a do or die self-defence situation I would take the mentality over limiting myself to the moves any day. Do whatever it takes, but look scary and completely in control while you do it I guess?
Also all those years ago I studied Tae Kwon Do to stop myself from being bullied at school. I never learned any sporting elements to it but it sure as hell made the bad kids go away. I'd say that counts as effective self defence.
Also I study while completely understanding that practising karate and self-defence are two completely different things. If it really was a do or die self-defence situation I would take the mentality over limiting myself to the moves any day. Do whatever it takes, but look scary and completely in control while you do it I guess?
Also all those years ago I studied Tae Kwon Do to stop myself from being bullied at school. I never learned any sporting elements to it but it sure as hell made the bad kids go away. I'd say that counts as effective self defence.
Why do you think they are two completely different things? Karate was designed as civilian unarmed self defence, it's what the Bunkai of katas are all about as much as all the other training in it. Karate is very much about self defence, I don't honestly know what else you'd use it for.
Ademadis
Green Belt
I suppose my statement was pretty matter of fact. I'm wrong they're not two COMPLETELY different things.
It's more like; I didn't begin studying karate because I wanted to learn self defence, I began for fitness reasons. I don't study it currently with self-defence foremost in my mind, there's still the fitness element to it and I want to enter competitions etc instead.
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Fair enough
However as you get fitter you are also learning self defence techniques so it's win win, which has to be good. I hope you do Bunkai when you learn and practice kata though.
What sort of competitions are you planning on entering? I used to do full contact sparring and kata comps as well as a bit of kick boxing.
Ademadis
Green Belt
Fair enough
However as you get fitter you are also learning self defence techniques so it's win win, which has to be good. I hope you do Bunkai when you learn and practice kata though.
What sort of competitions are you planning on entering? I used to do full contact sparring and kata comps as well as a bit of kick boxing.
Aye we do Bunkai, and honestly I'm not sure yet as I'm still a relatively new practitioner. My club doesn't do full contact sparring but I have considered it. I'm going to attend a BUCS tournament (inter-university stuff) early next year to see where I stand and branch out from there.
Have you got any recommendations/advice for a complete competitions novice that I can take to heart?
Just listen to your instructors and enjoy yourself! Get the most fun out of competitions you can.
Ps I wasn't too, too far from you this week, my daughter lives in Newmarket on the Godolphin Estate, weather was lovely and had a great time but oh the drag up the A1 back up North lol.
What style of karate are you doing by the way, meant to ask.
Ademadis
Green Belt
Just listen to your instructors and enjoy yourself! Get the most fun out of competitions you can.
Ps I wasn't too, too far from you this week, my daughter lives in Newmarket on the Godolphin Estate, weather was lovely and had a great time but oh the drag up the A1 back up North lol.
What style of karate are you doing by the way, meant to ask.
Mm close one
, and yeah the weather is scorching! I wouldn't mind if you passed some northern rain down to us, I swear I'm gonna die in this heat I'm studying Shotokan, but my Dojo's pretty eclectic when it comes to Karate styles. Student turnover means a lot of different karateka come and go.
Sojobo
Green Belt
Perhaps it depends on style?
As someone who practices Wado-ryu, I don't think self defence is what Otsuka had in mind as its 'raison d'être'.
Perhaps it's a happy by-product (depends on how it is taught of course), but I've always said that if self defence is your ultimate goal - there are far more expeditious ways to achieve this!
I also train Wado Ryu and I would disagree with you quite strongly. The fact he trained with Choki Motobu and disagreed with Funakoshi over sparring shows a more combative nature.
that people chose to use it as a keep fit session is probably not what he had in mind when he formed Wado. Also the Yakusoku Kumite and Kihon Gumite show techniques which are the traditional use of karate, combat. Ohyogumite is a system of attacks and defences, if one were to not bring combat/self defence into the style why would one train these?
Karate is old, older than Wado and Shotokan as you know, it's most likely that Shotokan was devised with a more peaceful intent but as Otsuka disagreed with him plus added elements of other more combative styles I don't think he intended it to be not for self defence. The Pinan katas I don't think would have been chosen just for fitness or some sort of spirituality. http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/there-nothing-peaceful-about-pinansCertainly instructors I know who trained under him were sure it was about self defence and frankly I wouldn't argue with them who knew him.
