Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[Sojobo]

You assume you have been training longer than I have? Anyone with half a brain will have realised that you have called out my instructors and promoted yourself as being superior to them and their instructors as well. Your ideas of others in Wado leave a bad taste I'm afraid.

Length of time training is in not always a measure of ability or understanding.

I have NOT called out your instructors (I don't know them), I have simply made a statement based personal observation that "many" instructors (that was the word I used) were barking up the wrong tree.

I also acknowledge that were good ones out there.

If what I say leaves a bad taste in your mouth so be it.

 

[Sojobo]

That is much of what I had in mind. If the founder of Wado was heavily influenced (as seems the case) by Motobu's teaching, I can't imagine that he didn't have combat (fighting) effectiveness among his goals for the style.

Otsuka's involvement with Motobu was fleeting at best.

There is no doubt he trained with him (and Wado's Naihanchi kata is in the most part that of Motobu), but I don't think it was Motobu that encouraged the difference (in terms of whether to include kumite in your Karate).

This almost certainly came from Otsuka's koryu training where controlled sparing / kumite / randori etc was a staple part of keiko.

 

[Tez3]

That is much of what I had in mind. If the founder of Wado was heavily influenced (as seems the case) by Motobu's teaching, I can't imagine that he didn't have combat (fighting) effectiveness among his goals for the style.

You mentioned a difference in opinion on sparring, but I didn't see anything specifically about that in the articles.

Shotokan isn't my style but I do know that Funakoshi didn't like sparring, others did including Ohtsuka which cause the split. Hironori Ohtsuka. This mentions the three instructors who came here to teach Wado and which Sojobo thinks are so lacking.




it seems now that Sojobo has had a change of direction Wado is far too dangerous to be used for self defence because it's a 'battlefield art to be used for killing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shotokan isn't my style but I do know that Funakoshi didn't like sparring, others did including Ohtsuka which cause the split. Hironori Ohtsuka




it seems now that Sojobo has had a change of direction Wado is far too dangerous to be used for self defence because it's a 'battlefield art to be used for killing.

That's interesting. It seems at least some Shotokan schools don't agree with Funakoshi's thoughts on that. I have a student who studied Shotokan for 8 years in Germany, and they apparently sparred extensively.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Otsuka's involvement with Motobu was fleeting at best.

There is no doubt he trained with him (and Wado's Naihanchi kata is in the most part that of Motobu), but I don't think it was Motobu that encouraged the difference (in terms of whether to include kumite in your Karate).

This almost certainly came from Otsuka's koryu training where controlled sparing / kumite / randori etc was a staple part of keiko.

"Fleeting" is a fairly vague term. If the author of the article Tez linked to is correct, the combat orientation is one of the reasons he trained with Motobu. The length of time he spent with Motobu isn't as relevant as his reasons for it, hence my reference to the influence rather than the training. If he went seeking someone with more combat focus for his own training, I'd be surprised if he later decided not to have a combat focus in his own art.

 

[Tez3]

The three instructors sent here taught as they were taught by the founder. If he were not happy with them I can't imagine why they would have been sent here if they weren't well grounded in the style, ( length of time training means little I'm told), then surely Wado Ryu would not have been taught here by them.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you train in Wado in the UK?

I see. So your response to a direct question about the specific training, experience and ranking you possess that qualifies you to make broad sweeping statements about the state of an art is vague and evasive.
I think that actually tells me exactly what I need to know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see. So your response to a direct question about the specific training, experience and ranking you possess that qualifies you to make broad sweeping statements about the state of an art is vague and evasive.
I think that actually tells me exactly what I need to know.

That reminds me of an interaction I had at a conference. I saw someone conducting business in a way I considered odd. I stepped up and asked him why he made that decision (under the assumption there was probably a good reason for it, which I didn't know). His response was, "I made two million dollars last year. How much did you make?"

I knew then that there was probably no reason for his decision except personal arrogance.

 

[Sojobo]

"Fleeting" is a fairly vague term. If the author of the article Tez linked to is correct, the combat orientation is one of the reasons he trained with Motobu. The length of time he spent with Motobu isn't as relevant as his reasons for it, hence my reference to the influence rather than the training. If he went seeking someone with more combat focus for his own training, I'd be surprised if he later decided not to have a combat focus in his own art.

According to the biography of Otsuka by his grandson Kazutaka Otsuka...

"When he was 31 years old, he heard of Funakoshi Sensei from Okinawa living in a Meiseijuku dormitory, which was for the university students of Okinawa and he started studying at the Meiseijuku dormitory in the dining room. Funakoshi Sensei asked Grand Master Otsuka if he knew karate before because Shinto Yoshin Ryu already included striking and kicking techniques. Funakoshi Sensei knew only 15 katas at that time and Grand Master Otsuka completed those in less than one year. Then he wasn’t satisfied with only learning order of katas, so he wanted to visit Okinawa to find out about meaning of each movement, but Funakoshi Sensei denied him going to Okinawa. Funakoshi Sensei had reasons for not wanting to return to Okinawa. Because of debts incurred by Giei, his son, he was unable to return to Okinawa. Three years later, Grand Master Otsuka visited two Okinawa senseis, Mabuni Kenei and Choki Motubu who were living in Osaka City, in order to learn more detail about Okinawan karate. He asked Motobu Sensei about details of each karate techniques and they shared techniques with each other. He then asked about the actual situation of karate in Okinawa and found out there was no further information for him there, so he decided not to travel to Okinawa but to study himself about karate and jujutsu and to create a new style"

There is little evidence to support the fact that Otsuka trained extensively with Motobu, let alone the suggestion that his main reason for doing so was because of Kumite.

 

[Sojobo]

I see. So your response to a direct question about the specific training, experience and ranking you possess that qualifies you to make broad sweeping statements about the state of an art is vague and evasive.
I think that actually tells me exactly what I need to know.

My rank is irrelevant to you.

The fact that you think I know less about my martial art than I do - tells me something about your mindset too.

 

[Sojobo]

That reminds me of an interaction I had at a conference. I saw someone conducting business in a way I considered odd. I stepped up and asked him why he made that decision (under the assumption there was probably a good reason for it, which I didn't know). His response was, "I made two million dollars last year. How much did you make?"

I knew then that there was probably no reason for his decision except personal arrogance.

Guys - if you want to stick with your buddy over this that's fine.

She's not right and you don't know why.

I've let you have my reasoning as to why - but if that doesn't leave you in a happy place - I'm not going to cry over it.

 

[Sojobo]

That's interesting. It seems at least some Shotokan schools don't agree with Funakoshi's thoughts on that. I have a student who studied Shotokan for 8 years in Germany, and they apparently sparred extensively.

Most Shotokan schools today spar extensively and have done for a long time.

Shotokan changed shape and direction extensively when Funkoshi's son and senior students took over the reigns from him.

 

[Tez3]

Ok, lets put this into perspective. First you say Wado Ryu is not for self defence, it has other, unnamed purposes.

As someone who practices Wado-ryu, I don't think self defence is what Otsuka had in mind as its 'raison d'être'.
!

Tez,

Nothing personal I assure you.

And the written word can often be mistaken in terms of tone.

Regarding Wado though this is the problem.

Many of the senior Wado instructors here in the UK (I'm talking 7th and 8th dans) don't get it.

Why, because Wado in the UK is broken and has been for decades.

Fact is - because they don't get it they cling to what is tangible and seemingly self evident.

That sets people down the wrong path with wrong goals and objectives and that's a shame, because Wado is a great art and much much more than a self defence system.

But it presumable is because you've just said it's more than a self defence system while telling us that Wado Ryu is broken and useless, it's senior instructors rubbish. Oh and the three instructors sent by Ohtsuka to bring Wado to the UK. Your experience being the touchstone of quality.

If I could edit my post I would to say that - Wado in the UK (to a large degree) is broken.

There are pockets / groups that do 'get it' but they are in the minority.

To an extent, Wado-ryu (in the UK anyway) is a victim of its own success - in that its popularity in the late 60's and 70's meant that there are now scores of senior dan grades that (in the most part) broke away from the traditional teachings of the Japanese at 3rd dan (or below). These guys are now 7th and 8th dan 'Shihans' that - in my experience - were taken out of the oven before they were fully cooked (in fact it isn't confined to British born sensei's. Some of the early Japanese instructors that came over to the UK to spread the Wado word were fresh out of university at the time - and that helped fuel things).

Consequently (and I have decades of training along many of these guys to justify this statement) - they do not have enough depth of understanding in terms of the 'pedagogy' of Wado-ryu and how it fits into the 'Japanese' spectrum of Budo (the pinch of salt analogy) and instead look to Okinawan Karate / Shotokan to fill in the gaps.

Personal insults, nice. However it's a matter of opinion whether karate is just for self defence or not.That's for another discussion another thread. the thing is, I'm not saying I'm right, the three instructors who Ohtsuka and those they trained are the people you are saying are wrong.

It was suggested that Karate is only about Self Defence and when I suggested that Wado was not (and presented source reference to support that affirmation) - you get all stroppy and suggest that my posts are unnecessarily aloof and personal.

You know in life - you have to accept that you may not always be right?

To understand Wado and how it ticks, you should not look at Karate and its "Self Defence" reasoning.

Instead you need to look at the Koryu arts of feudal Japan upon which Wado is based.

Most of the principles of Wado (in terms of movement and application) are derived from sword oriented bu-jutsu.

Lets be quite clear - these were not intended to be used by the layman as a method of self protection against "ruffians" they were aggressive techniques designed to take out (by killing or maiming) your enemy.

Otsuka was very well versed in these arts and recognised that there was a gap in the market between Judo and Aikido to make a "Japanese karate" that engaged the principles or Koryu bujutsu (in terms of cultural assets of Japan) to promote the "self improvement" side of training in the martial arts.

In this respect it is a study of martial movement and principles over and above it being a method of self defence.

Whether Wado comes from the Koryo or not is not the point of the discussion, we were discussing self defence however you have taken it now to show that Wado is too deadly an art to be taught, it's only for those who fight on the battlefield, it also looks as if you are now also telling us that it's a deadly killing art which only you and a few true initiates practice, it's not for us laymen...we wouldn't understand. That is how you are coming across.
The only question relevant to this thread is the self defence aspect of karate.

 

[Sojobo]

Shotokan isn't my style but I do know that Funakoshi didn't like sparring, others did including Ohtsuka which cause the split. Hironori Ohtsuka. This mentions the three instructors who came here to teach Wado and which Sojobo thinks are so lacking.

Come on Tez - you're better than this.

Having trained with one of those Instructors and extensively with one of their students - they are (were) not lacking and you know that was not what I was referring to.

it seems now that Sojobo has had a change of direction Wado is far too dangerous to be used for self defence because it's a 'battlefield art to be used for killing.

Yes - because I said that didn't I

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My rank is irrelevant to you.

The fact that you think I know less about my martial art than I do - tells me something about your mindset too.

Actually, his initial post held no indication that he thought you knew less. He asked a question to get some frame of reference as to how much you are likely to know. If someone asks how long I've been studying NGA, that's a valid question that gives them some idea of how informed I'm likely to be and how deep my understanding likely is. ("Likely" of course being key in this.)

 

[Tez3]

Sojobo, this thread is about self defence in karate not where Wado, Shotokan or anything else came from.
Can you defend yourself if you train Wado Ryu...yes or no?

You are making assumptions about people, putting words into people's mouths, deciding we are all ignorant and only you know the answer. You have bad mouthed several instructors, said that Wado is 'broken' and we have it all wrong. No, we have nothing 'wrong' you are just on the wrong subject. I repeat, can you defend yourself from attack if you train Wado Ryu? A lot of people don't actually care where it came from who did what who said what, not their monkey, not their circus. Do we need a lecture to divine whether a Wado Ryu karateka can defend themselves? No. All you needed to say was whether you felt Wado people can defend themselves or not. Simple.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Guys - if you want to stick with your buddy over this that's fine.

She's not right and you don't know why.

I've let you have my reasoning as to why - but if that doesn't leave you in a happy place - I'm not going to cry over it.

I've actually said nothing in support of Tez. I've only responded to what has been posted, noting what seems to support one side of the debate or another (and those things that seem irrelevant to the debate at hand). Tez provided some relevant articles that supported her view, and I commented on the articles (not on her points). You've now posted one that seems to contradict a key point from one of those articles, and that's relevant.

 

[Tez3]

Come on Tez - you're better than this.

Don't you dare patronise me! You wandered so far off topic with your crusade to show how much you know you have alienated at least one good poster here. There was no disagreements until you started on your quest to 'educate' us. All we were discussing was karate and self defence.

 

[Sojobo]

Don't you dare patronise me! .

What!! And 'Mansplaining' isn't patronising!?

 

[Sojobo]

Actually, his initial post held no indication that he thought you knew less. He asked a question to get some frame of reference as to how much you are likely to know. If someone asks how long I've been studying NGA, that's a valid question that gives them some idea of how informed I'm likely to be and how deep my understanding likely is. ("Likely" of course being key in this.)

And I think I answered that.