CoryKS
Senior Master
It sounds to me like you have elevated monkeydancing to the status of self defense. This is a troubling viewpoint, as it virtually guarantees that you will respond disproportionately to any perceived affront.
Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense
- Thread starter Ceicei
- Start date
It sounds to me like you have elevated monkeydancing to the status of self defense. This is a troubling viewpoint, as it virtually guarantees that you will respond disproportionately to any perceived affront.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Hey! I happen to like dancing like a monkey. :headbangin:
Omar B
Senior Master
Hey, if we are gonna start dancing all fancy let me know! Let me just say I consider myself to be the greatest dancer on this planet, and at least 3 others.
CoryKS
Senior Master
CoryKS
Senior Master
That's a great link, with a lot of really good information and very well worth taking the time to read it.
But, for those who (like me) often don't click links... The Monkey Dance refers to the large number of "fights" that aren't really about hurting and being hurt; they're about protecting ego, showing dominance, and proving manhood. They're posturing, not really fighting, in other words. A Monkey Dance only happens when both parties feel like they've got something to prove. And Monkey Dances end when the parties don't have anything left to prove...
A real fight isn't about proving status; it's about destroying an enemy before they can destroy you. Rory Miller describes it well with his 4 truths: real violence happens closer, more suddenly, faster, and a more powerfully than we are conditioned to expect.
It's the difference between a mob assault/gang beat down and a "friendly bar fight."
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
It's only self defense for the people dancing around you.
You must've observed me in the mosh pit.
Apparently not, as you went on to post a multiple paragraph response to someone else after you made this non-response, and numerous lengthy responses to others here. In fact, your posts on this thread far outnumber my own.
You obviously have no answer because you have no knowledge base from which to formulate one. Otherwise, you would have answered me by now.
Good day.
Daniel
Omar B
Senior Master
We moshing now! Let me go change my shirt, I don't wanna get blood on this one.
Slayer!
I do agree with the fact that sometimes karate thought in karate schools that practice soft competition style karate can be uneffective, but, we do have to separate these terms here: Modern and Original Karate.
They are two different worlds.
I've seen and as the matter of fact, I have some videos that are probably 4 or more decades old. Those videos show TRUE karate masters in their fifties fighting FOR REAL. I am telling you, I've been in karate for more than 17 years, but I've never seen stances to perfect and pure, or the punches and kicks so fast, accurate and powerful, and this was a real fight, not kata. This was original, true karate in a real combat situation.
People today want to learn how to be some supehuman martial artist over night. It takes years and years, and some even never get there. Take KUJI KIRI for example... Ninjas pracite this technique to perfect their mind and gain abilities that are considered to be superpowers, something that can only be seen on a movie. I know that those abilities are true, but when you tell somebody that he has to practice these techniques that are exremely dangerous to practice, and that he has to practice them for decades before he gains results, he will probably say, DUDE, YOU ARE A FOOL...
Same thing is with karate... It has to be practiced EVERY DAY, for a long time, until those movements become the part of your body, your mind. Only then, they will become effective. That is why all these martial arts are called DO, The way, Path,.... You have to follow it. Karate in it's origins is a perfect weapon...
They are two different worlds.
I've seen and as the matter of fact, I have some videos that are probably 4 or more decades old. Those videos show TRUE karate masters in their fifties fighting FOR REAL. I am telling you, I've been in karate for more than 17 years, but I've never seen stances to perfect and pure, or the punches and kicks so fast, accurate and powerful, and this was a real fight, not kata. This was original, true karate in a real combat situation.
People today want to learn how to be some supehuman martial artist over night. It takes years and years, and some even never get there. Take KUJI KIRI for example... Ninjas pracite this technique to perfect their mind and gain abilities that are considered to be superpowers, something that can only be seen on a movie. I know that those abilities are true, but when you tell somebody that he has to practice these techniques that are exremely dangerous to practice, and that he has to practice them for decades before he gains results, he will probably say, DUDE, YOU ARE A FOOL...
Same thing is with karate... It has to be practiced EVERY DAY, for a long time, until those movements become the part of your body, your mind. Only then, they will become effective. That is why all these martial arts are called DO, The way, Path,.... You have to follow it. Karate in it's origins is a perfect weapon...
blindsage
Master of Arts
So not Shotokan then.
One of the problems with this discussion and the sales pitch disguised as an article is that nobody ever names any particular ryus of karate. They just say, 'karate' with no qualifications. When asked, the question is dodged.
Daniel
Daniel
Unfortunately a number of excellent posts were lost when the website was upgraded a week or two ago. Discussion included what is traditional karate.
So I will put my neck on the block.
Traditional karate to me is karate that was practised on Okinawa prior to 1900. After that time karate was introduced into Japanese schools and was sanitised. Any advanced techniques that were taught in Japan were never passed on to Westerners.
I do not dispute that you may have some interesting video of some people using hard karate techniques some 40 or so years ago but I would suggest that they were NOT True karate masters. There is some film of some masters performing some techniques but the masters were very selective as to whom they even taught the real meanings of their art. My mind cannot even contemplate true karate masters being filmed in a real combat situation.
Now you may have been training your karate for 17 years but I would doubt you have seen much traditional karate. What you are calling original is the stuff many of us cut our teeth on 20, 30 or 40 years ago and although it may have been hard, it was not traditional and was largely aimed at the sport market. That is the karate that the article is quite right in saying may not be effective in the street scenario.
Kata was never designed to use in a real fight. It is a number of techniques in a sequence to preserve the essence of a fighting system. Each technique is to be used separately as the situation demands. The kata reminds us of the technique and how we should apply it. Any real fight will include multiple strikes or kicks, most of which will be found in kata.
Karate DO is not the original karate. Karate JUTSU was the original and traditional karate and thanks to many people like Patrick McCarthy, Iain Abernethy, Earle Montaque, Evan Pantazi, Geoff Thompson and others, we are slowly learning something about traditional karate.
Now just a quick comment on KUJI KIRI.
Dude .. not even I believe in magic!!
TimoS
Master of Arts
IMO, you need to distinguish between japanese karate and okinawan karate. Many okinawan styles haven't changed that much. The japanese karate, on the other hand, quite soon after the introduction, started focusing on competitions, thus making the study of kata "unnecessary". The kata became, as one of my friends calls it, "ugly dances", i.e. series of movements without any function. This was not so on Okinawa. There the kata remained the central element of the systems (probably not all, I'll give you that). Now as for westerners never learning any "advanced techniques", well, maybe that was because a) they were also more focused on competition karate and b) they weren't studying all that long, maybe a few years at most (and some of them never came back to Japan/Okinawa). I was just a couple of weeks ago in Okinawa for the Okinawa traditional karatedo world tournament and attended some seminars there. When I was in Joen Nakazato's seminar and there they demonstrated kata Passai and some of the applications to it. While it looks somewhat different than what we do in Seibukan, it was interesting to note that the bunkai was still the same. Coincidence? Of course not! After all, Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato shared a teacher: Chotoku Kyan. Of course you can say that, well Kyan started his karate training before this magical 1900, which is true, but why would he not teach his students what he knew? And why would they not pass it on to others? At least to those who stuck around long enough to learn something.
Or are you saying that people like Morio Higaonna, Zenpo Shimabukuro, Shuguro Nakazato, Ryoko Tomoyose etc. etc. don't know a thing about real karate?
While it may be true in some cases for Okinawan Karate, it's not true in all. In fact, I very much agree with Patrick McCarthy on this, from what I've seen and studied, there seems to have been quite a bit of back flow of Japanese Karate elements into Okinawa. I think many of the dojos may have changed things to placate the JKA and other organizations for nationalistic and economic reasons.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Based on what I've heard, it is sad but true. In Okinawa, there are some excellent instructors, but also some that aren't worth anything and who will basically sell you a new higher rank.
Mind you, some things that have come from Japan to Okinawa aren't necessarily bad things. The way I see it, one thing that has come from there is the standardization of techniques, which makes it easier to teach larger classes, e.g. beginners. Of course I don't mean any "global" standard, that all the styles do things the same way, but within a school.
As you rightly point out, I should have differentiated between Japanese Karate and Okinawan Karate. I believe the Okinawan karate IS the traditional karate and I question whether the Okinawans taught the Japanese everything they knew, especially regarding the applications of the kata.
Now the men you mentioned:
Chotoku Kyan obviously was a master and studied under Ankoh Itosu, Kosaku Matsumora and Kokan Oyadomori. His student was Zenryo Shimabukuro and he obviously passed on his knowledge to his son, Zenpo Shimabukuro. As Kyan died prematurely we do not know if he had had time to pass on all his knowledge to Zenryo but lets say that he did.
Morio Higaonna is Okinawan and has obviously been in the right place to train with the right people and develop into the highly respected karateka he is today.
Shugoro Nakazato is also Okinawan, trained under Choshin Chibana, a student of Anko Itosu. He too obviously is one of the worlds top karateka.
Im not familiar with Ryoko Tomoyose except to note that his lineage is directly to Okinawa and China.
Nothing here is to say that there are no top Japanese Karateka, there obviously are. But, were they handed the knowledge in their initial training? I have my doubts. I think men like Gogen Yamaguchi, even thought he trained for a short time under Chojun Miyagi, were not taught all the secrets and achieved most of their knowledge by diligently studying other MAs.
I believe there is now a general movement around the world to gain more knowledge of the traditional karate and many like you are training in Okinawa. I dont believe it is coincidence that the pilgrimage is to Okinawa and not Japan.
Now, I cant speak for other countries, in Australia there are many schools teaching the same karate that we learnt years ago. The explanations are the same and as a result many people believe karate is not relevant as a SD mechanism. It is totally different to the karate you are training in Okinawa.
As to whether teachers teach all they know. I think most probably do, but is that an indication of the lack of knowledge passed on to them?
Personally, as you will have seen in my posts, I believe that karate, studied properly, has every tool we need for SD. :asian:
TimoS
Master of Arts
Sorry, my pet peeve, but Kyan most certainly did not study with Itosu. His teachers were: Chofu Kyan (his father), Sokon Matsumura, Chiku Maeda, Kokan Oyadomari, Kosaku Matsumora, Yara and whoever he learned Tokumine-no-kun from (apparently not Tokumine himself, since he was dead by the time Kyan came there)
Sorry but my reference says that he studied under Ankoh Itosu when he began training in about 1890, along with Kosaku Matsumora and Kokan Oyadomari.
http://ejmas.com/jks/jcsart_noble_0800.htm
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