Why the 9-11 conspiracies won't go away...

[jazkiljok]

i believe anyone who hasn't watched the most recent episode on SOUTH PARK-- should. funny as crap. literally. oh, and it's all about the 9/11 conspiracy theories too.


http://www.southparkstudios.com/show/display_episode.php?season=10&id1=1009&id2=152

 

[Mr. E]

This seems a good time and a good place to post this.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=28&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

 

[Big Don]

The batsh t crazy kooks that bring up Operation Northwoods are actually saying the Sainted Kennedy family plotted to kill Americans, you know, aside from Mary Jo Kopecne...

 

[Big Don]

Why the 9-11 conspiracies won't go away...
The same reason some people think Elvis and/or Jim Morrisson are still alive, namely, there are a lot of stupid people out there. It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who claim the Bush admnistration is hopelessly incompetent also claim the Bush administration are the evil geniuses behind 9-11.

 

[Just Torry]

Hi, I'm new so excuse me for posting here, but, I'd like to say that if George Bush had the ability to pull off the 9/11 attacks, he would probably have the resources to hide a few WMD's in the middle of a barren desert.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_believer_syndrome

True-believer syndrome is a term coined by M. Lamar Keene in his 1976 book The Psychic Mafia. Keene used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged.[1] It has since been applied, more loosely, to refer to any belief without empirical or logical foundations. Keene himself considered it to be a cognitive disorder,[2][3] and regarded it as being a key factor in the success of many mediums.[1] The term "true believer syndrome" is not used professionally by mainstream psychologists, psychiatrists or medical professionals and it is not recognised as a form of psychopathology or psychological impairment.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Elvis rigged the towers for demo.

Conspiracy wackos have some sort of mental issues. I wonder if its in the DSM-IV?

This guy has some interesting info on how this conspiracy phenomenon could be related to PTSD.

 

[Big Don]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_believer_syndrome

[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Derangement_Syndrome
The term BDS refers to a purported tendency by some American liberals to blame President George W. Bush for virtually every ill in the world.[3][4] It also purportedly refers to opposing a position advocated by the President just because he supports it, regardless of the position's merits.[5] The term has been used in newspaper columns and editorials, on talk radio, on FOX News, and in the conservative blogosphere.
Krauthammer, a former psychiatrist, defined BDS as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency—nay—the very existence of George W. Bush".[2][6] The term reflects a belief that some criticisms of President Bush—for example, a description of President Bush as the greatest current threat to American lives—are of emotional origins rather than based on facts or logic.[7

 

[OUMoose]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Derangement_Syndrome
The term BDS refers to a purported tendency by some American liberals to blame President George W. Bush for virtually every ill in the world.[3][4] It also purportedly refers to opposing a position advocated by the President just because he supports it, regardless of the position's merits.[5] The term has been used in newspaper columns and editorials, on talk radio, on FOX News, and in the conservative blogosphere.
Krauthammer, a former psychiatrist, defined BDS as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency—nay—the very existence of George W. Bush".[2][6] The term reflects a belief that some criticisms of President Bush—for example, a description of President Bush as the greatest current threat to American lives—are of emotional origins rather than based on facts or logic.[7

/sarcasm on

Soo... Anyone who disagrees with Heir Dubya is now labelled as "sick"? Man, it's a good thing that all those "black sites" were created, as now they can be renamed "mental health facilities" and these people can be brainwa... Ummm.. I mean "mentally sanitized"... you know, for their own saftey.

/sarcasm off

 

[Big Don]

/sarcasm on

Soo... Anyone who disagrees with Heir Dubya is now labelled as "sick"? Man, it's a good thing that all those "black sites" were created, as now they can be renamed "mental health facilities" and these people can be brainwa... Ummm.. I mean "mentally sanitized"... you know, for their own saftey.

/sarcasm off

Not at all, disagree all you like, however, if you fixate on President Bush as "worse than hitler", Evil Rovian puppet, etc, you may have a problem...
Ron Paul, andThe Democratic candidates for the presidency are all railing against Bush, that is kind of stupid, as he isn't running...

 

[Mr. E]

This guy has some interesting info on how this conspiracy phenomenon could be related to PTSD.

I think that it needs more study. Not enough evidence to really back up what he believes.

I do wonder if mental instability leads to believing in conspiracy theories, or if it is the other way around.

Most of the people heavily involved in conspiracy theories seem very reluctant to open their eyes to new information that might prove them wrong. After about thirty times of having thier smoking gun turn out to be a wet firecracker a normal person would admit that there really was not much to the central idea and give up.

But not the die- hard conspiracy buff. They just keep chugging along with the true believer syndrome and create bigger and bigger conspiracies to avoid having to face the fact that they are wrong.

Right after 9-11 there was some denials by Bin Laden about the attacks. People could be excused for thinking maybe someone else did it. And some people thought that the government might be behind it.

But later it turned out that Bin Laden did do it. So the conspiracy buffs had to expand their theory so that all the evidence that Bin Laden did it was fake.

But now that it is really clear that Bin Laden did it and is taking credit for the attacks, they have to now try to say that Bin Laden carried out the attacks because he was working with the government. :erg:

So how long can someone keep their sanity when they have to keep coming up with new and bigger theories to avoid admiting that they were wrong and the government they hate is not as bad as they said?

 

[OUMoose]

*snip*
So how long can someone keep their sanity when they have to keep coming up with new and bigger theories to avoid admitting that they were wrong and the government they hate is not as bad as they said?

How long can someone keep their sanity when they have to keep coming up with new and bigger theories to avoid admitting that the "conspiracy theorists" they hate might have a point and not be as bad as they said?

Perception can be an evil thing. The truth/fact/crux/meat of the matter is that the only people who really know what's going are are the people in power, and they're not talking. Why don't they talk? To breed infighting. Read this thread, and the Bin Laden Tape thread. Is it about logical discourse about the facts of the tape and it's legitimacy? Nope. It boils down to 2 groups of people calling each other crackpots or sheep. There's no united front to try to find the truth. This is the same reason our men and women overseas are getting killed instead of being brought home. We're too busy fighting each other instead of fighting those in power to effect the change that the "polls" say we want, but no one can seem to get done.

Sorry if this is a de-rail, but it seemed to fit, at least in my head.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

How long can someone keep their sanity when they have to keep coming up with new and bigger theories to avoid admitting that the "conspiracy theorists" they hate might have a point and not be as bad as they said?

Perception can be an evil thing. The truth/fact/crux/meat of the matter is that the only people who really know what's going are are the people in power, and they're not talking. Why don't they talk? To breed infighting. Read this thread, and the Bin Laden Tape thread. Is it about logical discourse about the facts of the tape and it's legitimacy? Nope. It boils down to 2 groups of people calling each other crackpots or sheep. There's no united front to try to find the truth. This is the same reason our men and women overseas are getting killed instead of being brought home. We're too busy fighting each other instead of fighting those in power to effect the change that the "polls" say we want, but no one can seem to get done.

Sorry if this is a de-rail, but it seemed to fit, at least in my head.

About the sanest post in this thread from where I sit.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Sorry, but anybody who really believes that 9/11 was an organized gvt. plot, but the same gvt. couldnt frame Saddam with a few well placed WMD's. And that the towers were somehow prepped for demolotion by gvt "spooks" under the noses of thousands, is for lack of a word....a crackpot.

And to label me a "true believer", while the tin hatters have the "truth"? priceless.

 

[Mr. E]

How long can someone keep their sanity when they have to keep coming up with new and bigger theories to avoid admitting that the "conspiracy theorists" they hate might have a point and not be as bad as they said?

If there was any proof, any at all, there might be a case for the conspiracy theorists.

But so far, everything comes down to conjecture, exageration and sometimes outright lying.

Just a few days ago, someone linked to a story by the Guardian about how someone might fake a tape from OBL and tried to say that it was proof that it was.

After about the tenth time you see that sort of thing happen, you tend to look on everything with a critical eye. That people would try to decieve others to press their theory shows that there is either some mental imbalance or an agenda.

No one here is saying that the Gulf of Tonkin thing or Watergate did not happen. We can accept that the government is not always the standard of truth and justice. But pulling off a 9-11 conspiracy to frame terrorists would require a heck of a lot more people ruthless enough to kill thousands of men, women and children from their own country, pull it off without a hitch and have no one go to the public with the story. That is a much taller order to believe and it is natural that reasonable people demand some sort of proof.

Take a look at the people that push these types of theories sometime. A lot of them think that the CIA killed JFK or that we never went to the moon. The hatred they have for America as we know it is pretty intense.

So is it silly to require some sort of proof from such obvious partisan folks such as these? And there has not been any sort of proof that stands up to the light of speculation. Most arguments just seem to revolve around throwing out as many web site addresses as possible and hope that no one really looks into any one claim to hard to convince folks that there is a conspiracy by the government.

As someone said,

For some reason, when I get on a website that gives the same weight to crackpot Nazis that it gives to everything else on the site, I tend to assume that everything on the site is nuts. Even when there's aren't articles arguing that the CIA/Mafia/Mossad alliance killed JFK, or the Trade Center was brought down by remote-controlled jetliners, in addition to the crackpot Nazis.

How in the hell can anybody take seriously authors who publish this kind of madness?

But, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." So as long as people are spreading these types of lies where we can see them, we need to stand up and point out all the problems with the story. Otherwise, a lie repeated often enough without challenge will be accepted as fact.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I'm not going to debate 9/11. Both sides seem to have been debated ad nauseum. I will say this, however...

The most amazing tricks have been pulled off by magicians and illusionists throughout history. One of the most famous works of illusion used by a military was the Trojan Horse, a symbol of victory that actually spelled defeat for the seeming victors.

Any illusionist worth his salt will tell you that there are many factors that contribute to quality illusions, but two of the most important factors are knowing how to work the gaff or pass right in front of the mark's eyes (usually through misdirection or the use of a stooge/stick), and the marks' desire to believe.

Keeping that in mind, more often than not, I largely ignore the news headlines but I pay attention to the seemingly small goings-on. Anyone that's had close-up magic performed on them knows that the tricks where a illusionist manipulates something that the mark is holding in their own hand or retaining on their person are the most amazing. The one thing that most marks don't consider is that most, if not all, of these tricks have been used in criminal enterprises all over the world.

So, IGNORE THE PRESTIGE!!! What do you value, as a human & a citizen of your respective country, and have those things been manipulated or outright taken away? & most important, how do you react to the theft of such things? Does your "belief" allow you to simply accept things that you otherwise wouldn't stand for, even for a second?

Don't buy the Trojan Horse. We can't afford it.

 

[Mr. E]

I'm not going to debate 9/11.

Then you are in kind of the wrong place, aren't you. :wink1:

Nothing of what you write is really new. You only have to look at how soon after some shooting tragedy for handgun control groups to start a new drive to ban guns to understand that there are people who will take advantage of a tragedy. But that is far from even thinking that one of these groups would engineer a campus shooting to push that drive. That level of evil is worlds beyond merely taking advantage.

And yes, I don't trust the government to always be in my best interest. Have you noticed how none of the opposition canidates for president seem to be taking a public stand on throwing out the Patriot Act? Considering just how often politicians make promises and throw them out the day after election day, the lack of rallying against the PA is telling. And if you want to really convince a republican that taking away rights is a bad thing, ask them what they think Hillary would do with it considering the problems we saw with her as co-president.

But to think that someone would engineer this just so that they could justify tighter control on the population- I require a bit more proof before I would accept that. Any proof would be nice. Not speculation, not possibilities and not something that can't be checked out. Good, solid facts.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Penn & Teller with John Cleese...

Does anyone else think that this work resembles the current administration's War on Terror? Just pretend that John's card is a justification for the war... & we are Teller.

Jokes on you, Teller.

 

[Mr. E]

It is a bit of a stretch to make that sort of analogy in this thread. Unless you really want to say that the conspiracy theorists are right and the Government really was behind the attacks. Do you think so? I really would like to hear it and debate it with you if that is the case.

But there was an interesting related video by Penn and Teller listed that does seem to relate to the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I&mode=related&search=

or did I already post that?

 

[Doc_Jude]

Then you are in kind of the wrong place, aren't you. :wink1:

Nothing of what you write is really new.

Cool. Thanks for taking my first line completely out of context

... But to think that someone would engineer this just so that they could justify tighter control on the population- I require a bit more proof before I would accept that. Any proof would be nice. Not speculation, not possibilities and not something that can't be checked out. Good, solid facts.

I'm waiting for "good, solid facts" to support EITHER side of this argument.