Why the 9-11 conspiracies won't go away...

[jazkiljok]

I don't know that I believe every conspiracy theory, however, nor would I believe everything/anything much that Bush's administration reported. I don't think there's anything wrong with not believing what your govt tell you, in fact I think it's healthy not to. In my very humble opinion, most politicians I've ever met/spoken to are either liars or grossly incompetant. I've found the lower the MP, the better in fact. Ergo, as a result, while some conspiracy theories are perhaps just that, perhaps they may be better labelled "conspiracy fantasies" than theories, some however, may be close to the mark.

As much as we like to think that there are universal truths, and there are some, there is also the concept of the truth depending upon a certain pov. I'd say staunch Republicans in the main probably would never accept that Bush's administration would be behind the 9/11 attacks, because as voters of that party, it's unpalatable to say the least. The same could be said in reverse of ardent democrats. "It was BUSH" they might cry, "he did it!"... Make no mistake though, this is now a world sized problem, and world sized crap has probably been fed to a lot of people. Misinformation in the current times is as important as information. If you (insert political party here) do have an agenda, then could it be seen as possible/probable that they would do anything to achieve that? Far fetched maybe, totally, and utterly, completely impossible....? I'd never put anything past Bush, or Blair, or any major leader of any major power. Sometimes the truth can be so simple as to be scary. I don't pretend to know what that truth is, but I do know that the world is going to hell in a hand cart, and B&B are in their own way, responsible for that.

it's always entertaining to see how much credit that conspiratorists give our administration(s) in executing complex black ops actions that involved large numbers of people working around the world who are adept at near magical achievements, capable of concealing evidence of any size and quantity, and extremely well-disciplined in keeping secrets to their dying days-- when the facts and reality point to an adminstration of immense ineptitude with an endless parade of leakers ready to point fingers.

add that to the fact that every future President, cia director, nsa director, fbi director would have to be also involved as well-- and you have to look at these conspiracy theorists in their true light.

no, this is not healthy skepticism. healthy skepticism is what we use to question the policies and political decisions based around the response to 9/11 and the direction that georgecondondick are taking us in iraq and afghanistan, iran, north korea etc.

conspiracy fantasies are just more denial of the times we live in, something to obsess over between dotting interest in celebrity meltdowns, brad pitt divorces and marriages, jonbonet, multimillionaire sports stars retirements, paris hilton sex vids and tom cruise's baby pix.

 

[Don Roley]

add that to the fact that every future President, cia director, nsa director, fbi director would have to be also involved as well-- and you have to look at these conspiracy theorists in their true light.

Good points. The more fervent people that believe in these theories have to believe that there is a force controlling the goverment and that all parties, both Democrat and Republican, are in on the plot. They have to. Because even if the current administration looked the other way and let the plot go through, there would be no way they could prevent future administrations from running to the public with the truth. So you find some of the sites are talking about the Illuminati and such. I just saw one the other day. I will see if I can find it again and post it here.

Edit- here is the link.
http://www.planetquo.com/Loony-9-11-Conspiracy-Theories

It is kind of hard to believe that they are being serious based on the title and the sheer lunacy of what they have on the site. But they honestly seem to be serious.

One of the wilder stories circulating about September 11th - and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs - is that it was carried out by nineteen fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they 'hate our freedoms.'

And this part of their site has to be seen to be believed.

http://www.planetquo.com/Illuminati-Design-And-Symbolism-In-The-Israeli-Supreme-Court-Building

 

[Makalakumu]

The problem with these arguments is that governments, including ours, have been performing either MIHOP or LIHOP False Flag Operations for millenia. And many of these operations WERE kept secret for many years, sometimes decades, before the secrets broke. What this demonstrates is that it IS possible for an amount of people to keep a secret for awhile.

While I appreciate the idealism of the veiw that SOMEONE would just come forward, I think that if viewed through a historical lense, we should not place our faith in that.

BTW - Morgan Reynolds was a Bush Administration official. He has come forward...but IMHO, he discredits himself by taking what he came forward with and attempting to expand upon it by delving into the "No Plane" theories.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yeah. And I will believe the opinions of people who demolish buildings with explosives for a living when they say that the WTC in no way could have been a controlled event.

The problem with this argument is that it is nothing more then Gatekeeping. It implies that one needs a peice of paper in order to understand something.

The argument posted above makes some valid points in some areas, but in others it is lacking. I've addressed the points that I felt I could address and I've conceeded that their are still problems with the demolition hypothesis.

However, compared to the NIST report and the governments explanation of things, the demolition hypothesis fits better. In order to understand this, you have got to take a look at the NIST report just to see how bad it is.

This of course, does not imply that there might be still better hypothesis that explain the data. Both NIST and demolition could turn out to be wrong.

 

[jazkiljok]

The problem with these arguments is that governments, including ours, have been performing either MIHOP or LIHOP False Flag Operations for millenia. And many of these operations WERE kept secret for many years, sometimes decades, before the secrets broke. What this demonstrates is that it IS possible for an amount of people to keep a secret for awhile.

While I appreciate the idealism of the veiw that SOMEONE would just come forward, I think that if viewed through a historical lense, we should not place our faith in that.

could you please be specific to what operations you are referring to? (just name two or three) -- if i know what exactly you are referring to, i will be able better to respond.

thanks

 

[Makalakumu]

I have a better idea. Lets take a long standing conspiracy that is pretty well decided by people who have been studying it.

It is well established that JFK was not killed by LHO. He was killed by a conspiracy of a large number of people in the government that participated in everything from the actual killing to the covering up and the subsequent investigation. Jack Kennedy was killed in 1962 and no one has come forward yet.

The evidence that exists is enough to overwhelm the Warren Commission Report and a conspiracy hypothesis. If someone came forward at this date, all it would do is establish an actual chain of guilt...depending on how its spun politically.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

could you please be specific to what operations you are referring to? (just name two or three) -- if i know what exactly you are referring to, i will be able better to respond.



thanks

Good luck on that sir. This is what you get...

It is well established(WTF??!!) that JFK was not killed by LHO.

Oh my lord.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspir...ogical_origins

According to many psychologists, a person who believes in one conspiracy theory is often a believer in other conspiracy theories and conversely for a person who does not believe in one conspiracy theory there is a lower probability that he, or she, will believe in another one.

 

[Makalakumu]

Oh my lord.

So, do you think that JFK was taken down by the magic bullet? Do you know what they call people who believe in things that violate the laws of physics? Nuts. Crackpots. Conspiracy Theorists. etc...

 

[crushing]

Tonight's Nova on PBS was about the second WTC attack and the experts explanation on why the towers came down as well as a look at NIST recomendations for building safety. They also discussed the world's next tallest building in Shanghai and the safety measures they are taking with that. It was pretty interesting.

 

[jazkiljok]

I have a better idea. Lets take a long standing conspiracy that is pretty well decided by people who have been studying it.

It is well established that JFK was not killed by LHO. He was killed by a conspiracy of a large number of people in the government that participated in everything from the actual killing to the covering up and the subsequent investigation. Jack Kennedy was killed in 1962 and no one has come forward yet.

The evidence that exists is enough to overwhelm the Warren Commission Report and a conspiracy hypothesis. If someone came forward at this date, all it would do is establish an actual chain of guilt...depending on how its spun politically.

it seemed you were referring to historically documented operations, not other conspiracy theories. can you without putting your own certify stamp of approval on it, name just a few of these false flag operations that were exposed at a later date? if you need an example, let me know.

 

[OUMoose]

Do you know what they call people who believe in things that violate the laws of physics? Nuts. Crackpots. Conspiracy Theorists. etc...

I thought they were called "evangelicals" or "Bush Supporters"...

*ducks the flames* C'mon people.. it was funny.... Sheesh.

I don't have enough engineering background to comment on the metallurgy discussions going on, nor the physics background to add to the investigation of the trajectory of the blasts vs. falling mass impact. However, when I can open up Digg and see 5 pages from 5 different respected news sites with various officials (Rice, Rumsfeld, and Cheney at the moment) all spouting different stuff about involvment in the atrocity, all DIRECTLY in opposition of what the "9/11 commission report" came out with, that doesn't turn any heads? It turns mine.

 

[Hand Sword]

Why won't they go away?


Easy! The elections haven't happened yet.

 

[Makalakumu]

it seemed you were referring to historically documented operations, not other conspiracy theories. can you without putting your own certify stamp of approval on it, name just a few of these false flag operations that were exposed at a later date? if you need an example, let me know.

The reason I brought this up is because as far as the point regarding people not talking, this one is probably the best example. Another good example of something heinous that involved lots of people was still managed to stay secret is MKULTRA and MKDELTA. These were the CIA mind control studies that involved physical, mental, and sexual torture. Participants were often drugged and blackmailed and over all, it was pretty unbelievable. However, this stuff really did happen. And it was kept secret for 25 years.

Anyway, one that I was thinking about was the Gulf of Tonkin incident. This was a MIHOP.

 

[Don Roley]

The reason I brought this up is because as far as the point regarding people not talking, this one is probably the best example.

Because they have nothing to talk about.

Your example of the Gulf of Tonkin incident is better. But it fails to take into account that it was found out. And it was not a situation where Americans either harmed Americans or let Americans get killed.

The amount of people to pull off a conspiracy like this, or even merely to stay silent while it happened, would be huge and someone would balk and go public or something would go wrong and be discovered. How many people can you find that are trustworthy, competent and willing to kill a few thousand of their own people?

It just does not make logical sense. For example, some people have tried to claim that some of the people that appear in the list of hijackers and on the tapes by Al Quaeda are still alive. Not only is it not true when you dig a little, but the very idea of them being alive is nuts if you think the goverment set up the attacks. You manage to pull something off this large, this well and are willing to kill 2973 people and you don't make sure that the suicide troops you have framed are picked up, shot and their bodies never found?

 

[jazkiljok]

Because they have nothing to talk about.

Your example of the Gulf of Tonkin incident is better. But it fails to take into account that it was found out. And it was not a situation where Americans either harmed Americans or let Americans get killed.

The amount of people to pull off a conspiracy like this, or even merely to stay silent while it happened, would be huge and someone would balk and go public or something would go wrong and be discovered. How many people can you find that are trustworthy, competent and willing to kill a few thousand of their own people?

It just does not make logical sense. For example, some people have tried to claim that some of the people that appear in the list of hijackers and on the tapes by Al Quaeda are still alive. Not only is it not true when you dig a little, but the very idea of them being alive is nuts if you think the goverment set up the attacks. You manage to pull something off this large, this well and are willing to kill 2973 people and you don't make sure that the suicide troops you have framed are picked up, shot and their bodies never found?

i agree with your assessment-- i would add that interestingly the Tonkin incident was about something that "didn't" happen, not something that did. it was a phantom attack that led LBJ to getting is GoT Resolution passed.

I would like to also point out that folks forget that we had a small thing called Watergate in our recent history. a lesson in how one of the most politically saavy and powerful presidents in our history had his presidency dragged down over a little break-in. if such a small criminal act couldn't be contained and covered up, it's hard to imagine (though i'm sure everyone who does will keep on) how one the scope and size of 9/11 could have any hopes of succeeding.

peace.

 

[bustr]

if such a small criminal act couldn't be contained and covered up, it's hard to imagine (though i'm sure everyone who does will keep on) how one the scope and size of 9/11 could have any hopes of succeeding.

Unless both parties are in on it.

 

[tradrockrat]

Unless both parties are in on it.

and the freemasons

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Dont forget the Illuminati, and their chapter groups; Skull and Bones, The Star Chamber, the Boy Scouts of America, The Pope, and Col. Sanders.

Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sunny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.
Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?
Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders before he went **** up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee beady eye! And that smug look on his face, "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"
Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?
Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!
Charlie Mackenzie: Coo-coo.

Advice

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Criminal Conspiracy

VS

Conspiracy Theory


I think some are confusing the 2.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Panoply of the Absurd

It's a panoply of the absurd and yet entirely of this world. Historian Dieter Groh writes that conspiracy theorists "represent a constant temptation for all of us" because they are a constant in western history. According to Groh, "the historical sequence before the French Revolution is one of Jews, heretics, witches, followed by Jews, Communists, capitalists, and secret services" after the revolutionary year of 1789.

As diverse as these theories and their adherents may be, they share a basic thought pattern: great tragedies must have great reasons. According to this way of thinking, it would be impossible for a small group of Islamists to strike such a damaging surprise blow against superpower USA, with all its weapons and intelligence services.

"The wonderful thing about a conspiracy theory is that it allows you to understand everything perfectly," says American political scientist Michael Barkun in an effort to explain the continued success of conspiracy theories. It "discloses to you that all the evil in the world can be attributed to a single cause, and that THEY are this cause, whoever they might be."

These are all little more than whispers in the dark. One thing is certain, however: The myth of a Jewish conspiracy began making the rounds on the internet shortly after the attacks. According to this tale, 4,000 Jews who worked in the World Trade Center didn't report to work on September 11th. This means that the Jews knew about it, since the Mossad must have planned the attack.

This theory is considered a matter of course in the Arab countries. It was first brought to life by the Lebanese TV station al-Manar, which proudly announces on its web site that it is conducting "psychological warfare against the Zionist enemy."

Abraham Foxman of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League in New York knows all too well just how tough this perfidious rumor is. He has often tried to use the figures at his disposal to dispense with the rumor. His employees counted the Jewish victims of the attack, and Foxman says that there were at least 400, and probably more. There are no official figures, since US authorities do not document religious affiliation.

This article is an excellent and thorough exploration into the phenomena this thread started out with.