Why so nasty?

[ballen0351]

At the end of the day your a grown man and a Vet why on earth do you give too craps about what people think about your black belt. If you find a DVD and enjoy what you see then have fun learn what you can and live your life. Dont be concerned with what "others" may think of you esp on a Martial Arts forum where Id bet not "everyone" that claims to be a black belt or an instructor really is. Its your life man live it.

 

[MJS]

At the end of the day your a grown man and a Vet why on earth do you give too craps about what people think about your black belt.

He apparently cared enough to ask the question here, even though the answers here are the same on other forums, and on numerous other threads on this forum.

If you find a DVD and enjoy what you see then have fun learn what you can and live your life.

Which is fine, as long as the person doing so, understands that the 'training' they're getting from the dvd, will always be sub-par.

Dont be concerned with what "others" may think of you esp on a Martial Arts forum where Id bet not "everyone" that claims to be a black belt or an instructor really is. Its your life man live it.

Much like someone who joins this forum, and puts in a bogus real name, you're right, I'm sure there're some that inflate their rank. However, there are alot of people on here who are legit martial artists. IMO, it should be obvious who those people are.

 

[shihansmurf]

At the end of the day your a grown man and a Vet why on earth do you give too craps about what people think about your black belt. If you find a DVD and enjoy what you see then have fun learn what you can and live your life. Dont be concerned with what "others" may think of you esp on a Martial Arts forum where Id bet not "everyone" that claims to be a black belt or an instructor really is. Its your life man live it.

QFT. I think we worry a bit too much about the precieved value of our rank instead of getting good training. If you're happy in what you're training, irrespective of the medium, then pursue what you want to do.

Mark

 

[shihansmurf]

Which is fine, as long as the person doing so, understands that the 'training' they're getting from the dvd, will always be sub-par.

Much like someone who joins this forum, and puts in a bogus real name, you're right, I'm sure there're some that inflate their rank. However, there are alot of people on here who are legit martial artists. IMO, it should be obvious who those people are.

Also true on both accounts. While I am a big fan of videos as a suppliment or even sole training on a closely related subject that one already has quite a bit of skill in, there is absolutely no substitute for mat time with a qualified instructor. I am currently working my way through the IKCA material. I have a BB in EPAK along with many years in Shotokan and a lot of boxing. I'm enjoying the process and the feedback from Mr LeRoux is outstanding, but I would jump at the chance to get into a school where they teach that system.

As to your last point....

Its just the nature of forums. Its funny how fast one can spot the frauds.

Mark

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

First off let me say I am a big fan of books, dvds, video you name it on the Martial Sciences!

However, as the only medium of learning it is a poor choice. Used for reference from previous training with an instructor it can be an excellent source of information. No one here is saying that DVD's are bad but instead that it is better to learn from an instructor and then utilize dvd's and books as refence. If you attempt to learn from a book or a dvd you will invariably miss all the fine points. These fine details are really what seperate a good martial practitioner from a poor one. (that and desire) My advice would be to find someone to learn from train as much as you can and then supplement that training with dvd's, book's, etc. In my system of Instinctive Response Training I have set it up so that practitioner's can train with instructors and then also learn from dvd's and book's and yes even some online training videos. However, if someone were to say: hey can I learn your system online or from your dvd's and book's? I would absolutely tell them no. They would invariably not learn it correctly or to a level of competency! Hope that helps in your decision!

 

[ballen0351]

He apparently cared enough to ask the question here, even though the answers here are the same on other forums, and on numerous other threads on this forum.

I know my point was if he is who he says he is (disabled Vet) he could have a black belt in Colorado basket weaving for all I care he dont need to feel below anyone hes already earned his respect in my book.

Which is fine, as long as the person doing so, understands that the 'training' they're getting from the dvd, will always be sub-par.

says who? If someone gives 100% effort learning the best he can from from a quality training tape he will be head and shoulders over a guy going the motions at a crappy school 1 or 2 days a week. But again I go back to my 1st comment he has nothing to prove to me.

Much like someone who joins this forum, and puts in a bogus real name, you're right, I'm sure there're some that inflate their rank. However, there are alot of people on here who are legit martial artists. IMO, it should be obvious who those people are.

Im sure there are more then you think. Just like police forums there are a ton of wanna be cops bragging about this and that when in real life they are prob 14 yr old kids.

Maybe my point was lost in my 1st post. I was trying to tell the OP that hes going nothing to prove to anyone and nothing to be ashamed of no matter what path he chooses. That purple heart means more in my book then any black belt. His concern as I read it was more people looking down on his belt because he wanted to learn from a DVD and my comments were more directed to that and not the quality of the training itself.

I personally enjoy going to class and learning from a quality instructor. I drive and hour and a half to go to the dojo I picked and I pass at least 11 other schools on the trip but thats me and this was the school I thought fit me best. I enjoy working with other people going hands on as well. They are 2 important aspects of training he will miss out on. I learn better by doing and not watching I could never learn anything from a training tape I have to do it to understand it. Others are not like that and can simply watch a clip of something and then do it. Thats me and I wont judge anyone else on the path they take. We all should be having a good time learning and if we are not any longer it may be time to move on.

 

[MJS]

I know my point was if he is who he says he is (disabled Vet) he could have a black belt in Colorado basket weaving for all I care he dont need to feel below anyone hes already earned his respect in my book.

Ok.

says who? If someone gives 100% effort learning the best he can from from a quality training tape he will be head and shoulders over a guy going the motions at a crappy school 1 or 2 days a week. But again I go back to my 1st comment he has nothing to prove to me.

Says alot of people. Someone on this thread, mentioned a UFC fighter, how he learned grappling thru dvd. My question is: Did he have any prior training? I ask that, because like I said myself, it'd be easier to pick things up due to that. I could pop in a Tatum dvd and pick up stuff, whereas my wife, whos never trained a day, would be lost. Again, a ref. tool...fine. A sole learning tool....not so fine. Are you assuming that the person who trains with a teacher will be getting crappy instruction? That may be but not in every case. Sorry, no matter how you try to slice it, the dvd student will always be sub-par. Would you rewire your house from reading a book? Maybe people shouldnt do drivers ed, but instead, just get behind the wheel, head to the highway in rush hour traffic, and wing it. Come on man.

Im sure there are more then you think. Just like police forums there are a ton of wanna be cops bragging about this and that when in real life they are prob 14 yr old kids.

And as I said, those people should be obvious to spot. Ive banned people from this forum, only to have them pop up under a new name. Doesn't take long to figure out. Why? Because once a dumb ***, always a dumb ***, and their posting habits are the tell tale sign. My point was simply...for every BS'er, there are a dozen legit people.

Maybe my point was lost in my 1st post. I was trying to tell the OP that hes going nothing to prove to anyone and nothing to be ashamed of no matter what path he chooses. That purple heart means more in my book then any black belt. His concern as I read it was more people looking down on his belt because he wanted to learn from a DVD and my comments were more directed to that and not the quality of the training itself.

Which brings me to....why repost the obvious? Was he really hoping to see something different? Did he really think somehow, he'd get different replies? As we see, that didn't happen.

I personally enjoy going to class and learning from a quality instructor. I drive and hour and a half to go to the dojo I picked and I pass at least 11 other schools on the trip but thats me and this was the school I thought fit me best. I enjoy working with other people going hands on as well. They are 2 important aspects of training he will miss out on. I learn better by doing and not watching I could never learn anything from a training tape I have to do it to understand it. Others are not like that and can simply watch a clip of something and then do it. Thats me and I wont judge anyone else on the path they take. We all should be having a good time learning and if we are not any longer it may be time to move on.

Yup, to each his own. All I can do, is offer advice....if they take it, great, if not, thats great too! LOL! I know what I do and I wouldn't change it for anything.

 

[ballen0351]

Says alot of people. Someone on this thread, mentioned a UFC fighter, how he learned grappling thru dvd. My question is: Did he have any prior training? I ask that, because like I said myself, it'd be easier to pick things up due to that. I could pop in a Tatum dvd and pick up stuff, whereas my wife, whos never trained a day, would be lost. Again, a ref. tool...fine. A sole learning tool....not so fine. Are you assuming that the person who trains with a teacher will be getting crappy instruction? That may be but not in every case. Sorry, no matter how you try to slice it, the dvd student will always be sub-par. Would you rewire your house from reading a book? Maybe people shouldnt do drivers ed, but instead, just get behind the wheel, head to the highway in rush hour traffic, and wing it. Come on man.
.

There is no Always in life other then taxes and death
To say everyone the goes to a brick and mortar school will get better training then someone from a DVD is wrong. For that to be true every brick and morter school would have to have a quailty teacher and every student in class would have to give it 100%.
There is a school near me that teaches "Native Amerian Martial Arts" they run around in total sterotype Indian garb with tan leather moccosins and the whole 9 yards, they "train" with rocks attached to sticks as tomahawks. The instructor/ owner is a white dude with red hair from New Jersey yet he wears the big feathered head dress. Instead of belts you get colored feathers. The place is a total joke. Now take a guy going there say hes not really trying just going thru the motions for something to do, or to just loose some weight vs a guy that gives 110% studing from a Dvd or say Higaonna Sensei clips on you tube because he has no extra money to actually pay for a class but he bust his butt and trains hard. Who is getting the better education? Im not saying all DVD training is equal or better but you cant say All DVD training is sub par to actual human teaching. Most times yes I agree with you but you cant say always.


P.S I have rewired my garage and an addition to my house only using a book. I also learned how to tile my bath room floor and shower from a book. I also learned the very complex Transportation article from a book. Constitutional law from a book, I learned to work on my cars from books.

 

[shihansmurf]

P.S I have rewired my garage and an addition to my house only using a book. I also learned how to tile my bath room floor and shower from a book. I also learned the very complex Transportation article from a book. Constitutional law from a book, I learned to work on my cars from books.

I've read a lot of cook books.

I couldn't make an omlette untill I actually grabbed some eggs and a skillet and started cooking.

The biggest issue with video training is the lack of physical interation and correction. I'm saying this a someone who advocates video instruction, so please understand that I'm not bashing the methodology in general. I think that there is a wealth on good quality distancelearning systems out there. I think that there is a ton of doodoo out there as well. Without a solid base of knowledge I don't see how a student can realistically know the difference.

I am working my way through the IKCA material. I have an extensive base of knowledge and ability in strikning arts that includes 5 years of training in Parker Kenpo. I have been very happy with the results I've had. I wouldn't consider video training on anything outside of any area that I had experience in. I'm not convinced that zero skill to mastery is possible through video. I certainly wouldn't try to pick up BJJ skills in this manner.

Its interesting that in these threads that people always point how they learned to play guitar or plumbing in this way and equating it to martial arts.

Here is the counter question.

Would you be willing to teach yourself skydiving from a book then fling yourself out of an airplane?

Just a thought,
Mark

 

[ballen0351]

I've read a lot of cook books.

I couldn't make an omlette untill I actually grabbed some eggs, and a skillet and started cooking.

The biggest issue with viseo training is the lack of physical interation and correction. I'm saying this a someone who advocates video instruction, so please understand that I'm not bashing the methodology in general. I think that there is a wealth on good quality distancelearning systems out there. I think that there is a ton of doodoo out there as well. Without a solid base of knowledge I don't see how a student can realistically know the difference.

I am working my way through the IKCA material. I have an extensive base of knowledge and ability in strikning arts that includes 5 years of training in Parker Kenpo. I have been very happy with the results I've had. I wouldn't consider video training on anything outside of any area that I had experience in.

Just a thought,
Mark

I dont disagree with you at all. I agree that 95% of the time you will get far better training from actual hands on training going to class. What I am saying is its not 100%. Im not one to judge anyone on how they decide is best for them to learn martial arts. If he feels DVD is the way to go well god bless him have fun and learn the best he can he has nothing to prove to me. If you were to ask whats the best way to learn a martial art I would say find a quality teacher and learn all you can. His question as I read it was were people going to look at him as less of a martial artist if he learned from a DVD and I was just saying in MY opinion he owes us nothing and can train any way he wants.

 

[shihansmurf]

I dont disagree with you at all. I agree that 95% of the time you will get far better training from actual hands on training going to class. What I am saying is its not 100%. Im not one to judge anyone on how they decide is best for them to learn martial arts. If he feels DVD is the way to go well god bless him have fun and learn the best he can he has nothing to prove to me. If you were to ask whats the best way to learn a martial art I would say find a quality teacher and learn all you can. His question as I read it was were people going to look at him as less of a martial artist if he learned from a DVD and I was just saying in MY opinion he owes us nothing and can train any way he wants.

Gotcha.

I was just kinda riffing on the thread drift.

As to your point. I'm with ya 100% A few years ago I had an epiphany. I realized the about 1/3 of the people were goning to look at what I do and teach and think its awesome. About 1/3 are going to be ambivilant. The remaining 1/3 are going to think its crap. I realized I only have time and energy to devote to one third of them. So....

Once i realized that, I stopped being concerned about what most folks out here in cyberspace have to say in reference to me or my students. I respect the judgement of the people that trained me and I respect their evaluation of my skill. My students are happy with the training they are receiving and the school enviornment that I have created. There a a few people here and on KT that I have developed respect for their opinions and many I don't. Once I stopped being concerned about the vast majority of people's view of me I began to enjoy the online experience more and I've been able to leanr a great deal from many here. It was a liberating experience.

Just a few rambling observations and anecdotes from when I'm supposed to be working.
Mark

P.S. As an active duty soldier, I appreciate the sentiment you expressed towards one of my brothers. Thanks for that.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Great advice and very good points by all members on this subject. I will only add this: A very dear friend of mine, who now holds a 6th or 7th dan in Judo - learned most, if not all his judo by watching DVDs and reading instructional books, and although he NEVER competed, at all - he did become a USA Olympic head coach (not sure what year, though) and he runs one of the top judo clubs in the USA. I don't believe this method will work for everyone - but it sure worked for him.

 

[ballen0351]

P.S. As an active duty soldier, I appreciate the sentiment you expressed towards one of my brothers. Thanks for that.

Im just a crusty old former Marine myself

 

[MJS]

There is no Always in life other then taxes and death
To say everyone the goes to a brick and mortar school will get better training then someone from a DVD is wrong. For that to be true every brick and morter school would have to have a quailty teacher and every student in class would have to give it 100%.
There is a school near me that teaches "Native Amerian Martial Arts" they run around in total sterotype Indian garb with tan leather moccosins and the whole 9 yards, they "train" with rocks attached to sticks as tomahawks. The instructor/ owner is a white dude with red hair from New Jersey yet he wears the big feathered head dress. Instead of belts you get colored feathers. The place is a total joke. Now take a guy going there say hes not really trying just going thru the motions for something to do, or to just loose some weight vs a guy that gives 110% studing from a Dvd or say Higaonna Sensei clips on you tube because he has no extra money to actually pay for a class but he bust his butt and trains hard. Who is getting the better education? Im not saying all DVD training is equal or better but you cant say All DVD training is sub par to actual human teaching. Most times yes I agree with you but you cant say always.


P.S I have rewired my garage and an addition to my house only using a book. I also learned how to tile my bath room floor and shower from a book. I also learned the very complex Transportation article from a book. Constitutional law from a book, I learned to work on my cars from books.

LOL, honestly, if I saw that school, I'd probably die laughing. Thank you for the laugh today. However, to say that anyone who learns from a book is getting quality training...well, we're going to have to agree to disagree sir. Sorry, but the person who puts in the blood, sweat and tears to actually LEARN under a quality teacher, will always be better off. Thats my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I could buy a cook book, but I'll never be a master chef. If it was that easy, nothing would consist of hands on. Everyone would take the easy way, and read or buy a dvd.

DVDs are just another tool in the money making game in martial arts of today. I'm not asking you or anyone else for that matter, to agree with me. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I'll respect your opinion, even though I dont agree. Like I said, we'll agree to disagree.

Again, I've done Kenpo for a long time. I could most likely benefit from Larry Tatums dvd set, and most likely pick up something. However, were I to fly to see Larry or attend one of his seminars, I'd gain MUCH more than simply watching him on tv, getting no feedback. The TV isn't going to correct me, Larry will. Were I to pick up a TKD dvd, I could mimic the moves, but I'm not going to have any understanding of them. I'll never know the meaning behind what I'm doing. If thats ok with people, fine, but they're missing out on alot of the art.

 

[MJS]

Great advice and very good points by all members on this subject. I will only add this: A very dear friend of mine, who now holds a 6th or 7th dan in Judo - learned most, if not all his judo by watching DVDs and reading instructional books, and although he NEVER competed, at all - he did become a USA Olympic head coach (not sure what year, though) and he runs one of the top judo clubs in the USA. I don't believe this method will work for everyone - but it sure worked for him.

How did he get ranked? Did he eventually go to a real teacher, was it via video testing or did he promote himself?

 

[Champ-Pain]

How did he get ranked? Did he eventually go to a real teacher, was it via video testing or did he promote himself?

I'm not sure, but whatever the case - all his dan promotions came via USJF and are recognized by USA Judo... He did not promote himself, though, that much I know for sure.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm. Looking through the USJF grading requirements that seems unlikely (that his training if mainly from DVDs/books). There's a range of things that cause me to doubt it, including part of the eligibility for promotion being recommendation from your instructor (non existant if there's only books or DVDs), the amount of time between grades required for non-competitors (12 years between Godan and Rokudan, for instance), and how long DVDs have been around (if he really started with them, hasn't ever competed, yet is ranked at Rokudan or Shichidan). Additionally, part of the requirements include constant dedication to Judo.... which might be hard to demonstrate if you haven't been attending a school. It would seem to me that they were more likely a supplement, which would make sense.

I'd be very interested to know exactly who it is that managed to get a Rokudan or higher without formal instruction or competing, yet also was appointed to a Coaching position on the Olympic team... it seems to me that the Olympic team might want someone who had actually some form of track record, rather than someone who turned up, and said "I learnt from a book, and I have no competition record, but I'm sure I'd be a good coach!"

For reference, the USJF Promotion Requirements can be found here: http://www.usjf.com/public/rank_requirement.pdf

 

[Champ-Pain]

I'm not sure, but whatever the case - all his dan promotions came via USJF and are recognized by USA Judo... He did not promote himself, though, that much I know for sure.

My friend started reading the books and watching the vids in the early 1970's... his son was part of the judo club that I was a member of, at the time, headed by Sensei Rene Masana. An old school Cuban National champion - in the "open" division, while only weighing about 175 lbs - vs - monsters who weighed far more than himself (Blanco, Montpellier, etc.). Sensei Masana was a great competitor and an even better Sensei. By the time I was 18 y/o, my friend had already earned his blackbelt (he's atleast 12 years older than me) - and when Sensei Masana passed away, he took over the dojo. A dojo that consisted of many National champions - and moved it to another location. Along with all those champions, two other teams also followed him to his new location, becoming what was the strongest team in the US, at that time. Since then, he has instructed and coached several Olympians and like I've already mentioned, became an USA Olympic "head coach". He himself, was the president of Florida Judo Yudanshakai for many years and his team continues to be one of, if not the best in the US. I believe his team won the "best team award" at the 20** jr US Open, where many of his students won medals (most of them Gold). I'm somewhat hiding and withholding his identity, because I'm not sure he'd like others knowing his "not so well kept secret", although I've now provided enough info about him - that I fear someone with enough time on their hands may easily find out his identity. PLEASE, don't post his name if you do. His contributions for judo have been many and he's been great for the sport, for many years, now. He is also responsible for me getting back into judo. after some time away from the sport, promoting me to Nidan and helping me make my own dojo a successful one. I love and respect him for all his accomplishments and all his help - and I consider him my 2nd Sensei.


Obviously, he did get lots of formal training throughout the years - after reading the books and watching the vids - but he never competed, at all.

 

[MJS]

I'm not sure, but whatever the case - all his dan promotions came via USJF and are recognized by USA Judo... He did not promote himself, though, that much I know for sure.

Umm....ok. To each his own I suppose, however, I"d still call this a bit suspect, but thats just me. I mean, someone learns primarily from books and dvd and then goes to some org. and gets rank, without having to train under a formal teacher???