Why so nasty?

[ETinCYQX]

The single biggest hindrance I can pinpoint for you in DVD training is the sheer amount of little nuances the instructor won't catch.

 

[Apache26b]

How would you know you had finally gotten it right without a live instructor to confirm it?

By performing the drill with my EXPERIENCED training partners.

 

[Apache26b]

Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.

 

[Apache26b]

I am glad to see such spirited debate but the question I was posing when I started this was not about if anyone thought I (or anyone for that matter) should train with those disks of which we do not speak. My question is why do so many folks (who should have matured to some degree through their training) take it as an invite to treat them like they are in some way inferior. If that is still too vague then I'll say it this way. Most of the replies I see are rude and if they don't disrespect the person posing the question then they certainly mock the folks offering those evil disks of which we do not speak. There is a market they are putting out a product. What part of that equation gives us the right to act like school yard bullys or jerks. If you haven't done this then i am not speaking to you. But to those who do act in such a manner why? What happened to tact and if you can't say anything nice keep your trap shut. Folks like Bill (sorry to single you out) had a negative opinion of dvds but still put his opinions and statements in such a way that they were polite and did not belittle anyone. All I'm saying is some folks could learn from his example. Yes there were others that were polite as well, but I am doing this on a phone and it is very difficult to go back and look at names while typing this.

 

[WC_lun]

Heya Apache,
A couple of remarks about your last couple of post. First, many of the guys here are still young and naive enough to believe that desire gets you what you want if you just want it bad enough. Don't be too rough with them, as most of us have been there until put into a situation where we learned different.

Yeah, some people are pretty short and to the point, to the point of being rude, when it comes to training from DvDs and books. I think part of that comes from answering the same questions about those medias over and over again. Then many times we are told by people that don't like what they hear that we are wrong and they are so talented that they can learn without a good instructor and/or quality training partners. Going back to your previous post, which in itself seemed a bit terse, just because a person wants too, doesn't mean they can. After 20+ years of hearing this discussion over and over again, with people just not listening or understanding what they are told by experienced martial artist, I do find myself less and less polite on the sibject.


Learning martial arts takes LOTS of tactile input. Without proper tactile input, training is subpar at best. Similiar to trying to learn how to race a car or perform neurosurgery by watching some vids or reading books. I've given these examples many times in response to the quesions on these media materials. Invariably there will be at least one person that tells me they can and/or have trained with videos and books and they are better than other people that have trained with live instructors. Knowing that response is going to be forthcoming, it is sometimes difficult to show patience and generousity in our post.


I hope your situation improves enough that you will be able to train as you like. Good luck!

 

[Cyriacus]

Noones being Nasty, theyre being Blunt, instead of repeating the same Story over again.

Instructed Training > Referential Training.
Referential Training + Capable Individual = Good Result.
Referential Training + Incapable Individual = Bad Result.
Instructed Training + Any Individual = Better Result.
Instructed Training By A Bad Instructor = Just as Bad a Result.
Referential Training + Experienced Partners = Why do You need the Referential Training if Theyre so Qualified and Talented and Proficient as to be able to Spot every Flaw and cite Years of Experience?

If someones been treating You like Youre Inferior for doing it, theyre just not a Nice Person. If Someone is saying they may well be Better due to how Theyre Training, They may well be right, and it is not an Insult.
And if You have such Experienced Training Partners, then You dont need DVDs. Learn from them.

And as for "What happened to tact and if you can't say anything nice keep your trap shut." - I say, if You want nothing but Positive Outlooks, wheter Affirmative or Negatory, Speak only to those who Agree with You or are Neutral, and not on a Public Discussion Board.

"Folks like Bill (sorry to single you out) had a negative opinion of dvds but still put his opinions and statements in such a way that they were polite and did not belittle anyone."
Who here Belittled You? (Im actually going to go Re-Read the Whole Thread now.)

As for How Bad You Want It, that was someone offering Perspective based on what They do, not posing it as Your Only Option.

The Bottom Line is, that You cannot Argue in Favor of this kind of Training. You can Justify it. And it is certainly Justifiable under the right Conditions. But as just about everyone has said, its a Question of Quality. If Your best Option is the Quality offered by Referential Training, then Good. If You have a Better Option, which You apparently dont, then thats better.
But You dont.
So thats Fine.

 

[Chris Parker]

Two things. And, yeah, I'm going to be a little blunt here.

By performing the drill with my EXPERIENCED training partners.

What are they experienced in, though? If it's not the same system, then they will have a reference to compare against the DVDs, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily have anywhere near the necessary insight into that particular system to be much more help. If it's the same system, then they will be your guides in the system (if they're not at instructor level), and the DVDs become references rather than instructional, which is what we've said they are better used for.

My point here is that one martial art does not equal another, with many having very different approaches, to the point of being contradictory. If the people you're working with have trained in a contradictory system (which, so you know, can superficially look very similar), then you can't learn the new system (the one you say you're interested in learning specifically) from them, and the benefit is limited, to the point of possibly being fairly detrimental to your development.

If you're after a particular art, and there isn't someone around to teach you, you can't learn it. That's really the long and the short of it. It doesn't matter how "experienced" your training partners are if they're not experienced in the art you're learning, it becomes a case of, well, not really the blind leading the blind, but more like a pilot trying to teach how to drive a train. Not the same thing.

Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.

I could give you quite a list of systems where, if you want to learn them, your one and only option is to move to Japan. If I want to learn a certain branch of Takenouchi Ryu, for instance, there are no dojos, no instructors, and no access outside of Japan, and even there only in a small part of the country.

So yeah, how important is this particular system to you? Bear in mind, we're not saying that in order to learn any martial art you have to make such effort and sacrifice, but if you've chosen that particular system, for whatever reason, and it's not available to you in your present location/circumstances, you really do have to accept that. Taking short cuts leads to major issues, which is what the DVD method is. You simply cannot learn a martial art from a DVD/book, or anything like that without personal guidance and instruction from someone who already knows the system. At all. The best you can do is copy the actions.

Seriously, this smacks of a misplaced sense of entitlement. Just because you want it doesn't mean it's there for you, you know. And if it's not available to you, well, it's not available to you. Accept or change the situation, and if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Deal with it. Seriously. I understand that you feel you are in special circumstances, but I have to tell you, you're really not. Everyone is in the same situation, where you may not have something you want available to you right now, and you need to accept that. I really want an Aston Martin DB9 Vantage, but you know what? I can't afford one. So my choices are to accept that, or look to altering my life and income so I can, but that may mean leaving behind a great number of things that I love, and it's not a sacrifice that I really want to make. A DB9 would be lovely, but I just don't want it bad enough. And I can accept that.

Your references to being in Afghanistan, or bringing up the memories of your deceased friends is really not the same thing, except in the fact that you need to accept the reality there as well. As you say, wanting it bad enough isn't enough there... but the big difference is that what we mean by "want it bad enough" is more along the lines of "how much are you willing to sacrifice, how far are you willing to go?", not sitting at home going "Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...".

So how much do you want to learn this system? How far are you willing to go? What can you sacrifice to learn it? How much is it worth to you? You can either learn it, which will mean sacrifice and travel, finding an instructor, and doing it properly, or you can't. But if you can't, I say accept it. And if you can't accept it, frankly, too bad. Wishing and whining won't change it.

 

[jks9199]

Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.

Look around you more carefully. There are lots of people teaching various arts in garages, back yards, community centers, parks, and similar places, with little fanfare. I don't know what's in your area for sure, or whether you're looking for a very specific art or are more open -- but you don't know what's there until you look.

And, regarding the "fairy tale" of traveling periodically to train? I know people who did it. I know people who would take a bus, every month or two, arrive at the instructor's home, train intensely for the weekend, then return home to practice. It can be done -- if you choose to do it.

But let me get back to the original question: training via video or books. It's possible. Especially for a person who already has some background. Your comparison with medical training or with some of your military training isn't 100% accurate. A surgeon doesn't start with training via video; they start with dissection, then supervised practice and learning during internship. Then they can learn a new technique or procedure from a book or video. A similar approach applies to the military training; you don't do Basic via a book or get handed a manual and be expected to be a Ranger or SF operator, right?

Most people here discourage trying to learn a martial art from a video or book. I would, too. While you have the advantage of seeing the exact same technique repeated exactly the same way, you miss details and perceptions that only come from direct experience. I once read a quote from Stephen Hayes where he described a couple of people who came up to him at a seminar or similar event, and showed him some sequences they'd learned from his books. He described them as "robotic" and stiff. Because they only had the frozen pictures in the books to learn from, and no teacher -- they missed a key element of the flow and feel of the arts. And, while you seeing the same technique repeated exactly the same can be very helpful (I've been incredibly frustrated when teachers change the drill they just taught or show a different technique when you ask to "see that again"... and then get upset when students are "doing it wrong!") -- it can also be a trap, because it might be that it's not really the specific technique that's important -- it's the underlying principle, which you won't see until you see the same thing done differently.

I don't think most users here have been "nasty" towards people who try to learn solely from videos or books. Discouraging something isn't the same as being "nasty" about doing it. There simply is no equivalent for actual training with a skilled instructor.

One other thing -- and this is a question to ask yourself, not answer publicly unless you choose to -- but I have to wonder if your perceptions of posts here and your opportunities may not be being shaped by the particulars of your situation.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think I'm just quoting myself making the same argument in two threads at the moment.... oh, well, this is relevant here as well: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?99726-Begginner-really-needs-help

They provide a greater opportunity to learn about many arts, and get a greater exposure to them, but they are just not good for learning an art itself. If you are already familiar with the system, they can certainly enhance your training, but learning from them in the first place is just not a good idea.

It's not actually down to the tools, it's down to the limitations and missing essential components of learning martial arts that this particular method of learning have. For instance, I took my guys through a series of knife defence techniques yesterday, and put everything that I would put in a DVD form in my demonstration of the technique. It was performed from various angles, the students were invited to move to a position where they could see clearly, all the pertinent points were covered, the essential aspects were explained, and so on. But then moving around the group, each person needed to have at least one or two things corrected, and each typically had something different that needed correction. That included things demonstrated but not stated, things where I had to reference previous lessons for that particular student, highlighting things that were in the explanation, rephrasing things, or adding particular details for a student to understand what the lesson was actually teachings. No DVD can provide that level or type of feedback, so even though my guys are experienced in the system (ranging from a few months to a number of years in the art), know my teaching style, this was the third week in a row we'd covered this type of material (the same principles applied in a slightly different scenario), not one of them would have actually learnt it properly from a DVD source, as they would pick up on some things, but not everything, and the learning happens in two ways in a martial art: application against a partner, and fine-tuning and correction on a personal level, attuned to the student, their abilities, and relative experience. This is just not possible in a DVD learning method.

 

[MJS]

Ok. I do have to say something about this "it's how bad you want it" crap. Some of you people aren't paying attention. Fly to a state that has a good instructor? Seriously? That's your recommendation? As I have already stated I am a disabled vet. Meaning I live on disability. After I pay my bills and buy food for the month it would literally take me a year or more to save enough for one trip. And for me to save the gas money to take a 4 hour one way trip? MAYBE twice a year. And still that is a stretch. That crap you are shoveling is a nice ferry tail, but here in the real world it is not just how bad I want it. If it was I would be in Afghanistan right now with my unit. Doing what I love. Being a soldier. But no matter how bad i want it i'm not. If it was that easy my friends would still be alive, but they aren't. So go sell that load to someone stupid enough to buy it.

First off, no need to get all pissy. You came on here, and asked a question, to which you received numerous replies. I'm sorry that you're not hearing what YOU want to hear, but as I've said many times, I dont sugar coat things. You ask a question, I'm giving you a straight answer. Whether you like it or not isn't a concern of mine. Sorry if that sounds harsh. You're not the first, nor will you be the last person, to ask advice. I could point you to numerous threads in which a member asked advice on what arts to train, he got that advice, then he got all upset and pissy because he wasn't liking the answers he got.

In a nutshell, yes, it does come down to how bad you want it. For example: I work nights, 4p-12a, with rotating days off. Currently, I work during the day, so training is much easier, but normally, I'm on nights. The majority of schools in my area have night time classes, with a handful offering day time classes. One of my good friends owns his own school, where he teaches a few different things, one being BJJ. I've said many times that I need to get back to down to his place and train BJJ. Havent done it yet though. If I wanted it bad enough, I'd make the time, yet due to other obligations, I have to tend to those first.

So, going on what you just said, here are somemore suggestions....

1) Buy dvds and try to learn from them, but accept the fact that it wont be easy, that you may not get taht good, that you may run into issues with understanding whats on the dvd.

2) Use forums, such as this, to network. Perhaps there're people in your area, that would be willing to train with you. I can say from experience, that I've met many fantastic people thru my years training. Some of the best workouts that I've had, have been in a backyard, or garage. No belts, no egos, no BS, just people that want to learn and train.

3) Determine how far you're willing to travel and how much you're willing to spend. Research schools in that area. Go to the school and talk to the head inst. Explain your situation to them and see if they're willing to work with you. Who knows...if you show enough desire to learn, they just may be willing to train you.

4) Accept the fact that perhaps training at this time, isn't going to work for you. Perhaps down the road, thigns will turn around, and you'll be able to train.

 

[MJS]

Heya Apache,
A couple of remarks about your last couple of post. First, many of the guys here are still young and naive enough to believe that desire gets you what you want if you just want it bad enough. Don't be too rough with them, as most of us have been there until put into a situation where we learned different.

Not sure if I'm one of the people this is directed at, but for the record, I dont consider myself young or naive, when it comes to training. After 26yrs., I think I know a thing or two. And yes, the desire to want something does play a part. There are things in life that I've wanted, I've put my mind to it, and I've done what I needed to do, to get those things. Want to buy a new car? Work some OT or pick up a PT job. Want to better yoruself so you can get a better job? Look into some Adult ed or college classes. Sorry, nowadays, too many people want to take the easy route. Instead of busting their ***, they sit and ***** and cry. IMO, unless you're going to a mcdojo, or are fortunate to be blessed in life with no worry, then the reality is, ya gotta work....theres no shortcuts or magic tricks.

Yeah, some people are pretty short and to the point, to the point of being rude, when it comes to training from DvDs and books. I think part of that comes from answering the same questions about those medias over and over again. Then many times we are told by people that don't like what they hear that we are wrong and they are so talented that they can learn without a good instructor and/or quality training partners. Going back to your previous post, which in itself seemed a bit terse, just because a person wants too, doesn't mean they can. After 20+ years of hearing this discussion over and over again, with people just not listening or understanding what they are told by experienced martial artist, I do find myself less and less polite on the sibject.

IMO, I dont feel that I was rude. Like I said, no sugar coating from me. I think the thing of it is, is that this is a question thats asked numerous times, usually with the same results.....people ask the question, others reply, the OP doesnt like what they hear, so they cry foul and say people are rude. LOL! This is laughable at best! I could point you to a thread in which a member who is now banned, asked questions about training. He got his answers, didn't like them, bitched, the thead died. A while later, same member comes back.....and asks the same damn questions. Process repeats! LOL! Thats why I say its laughable.

 

[MJS]

Two things. And, yeah, I'm going to be a little blunt here.



What are they experienced in, though? If it's not the same system, then they will have a reference to compare against the DVDs, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily have anywhere near the necessary insight into that particular system to be much more help. If it's the same system, then they will be your guides in the system (if they're not at instructor level), and the DVDs become references rather than instructional, which is what we've said they are better used for.

My point here is that one martial art does not equal another, with many having very different approaches, to the point of being contradictory. If the people you're working with have trained in a contradictory system (which, so you know, can superficially look very similar), then you can't learn the new system (the one you say you're interested in learning specifically) from them, and the benefit is limited, to the point of possibly being fairly detrimental to your development.

If you're after a particular art, and there isn't someone around to teach you, you can't learn it. That's really the long and the short of it. It doesn't matter how "experienced" your training partners are if they're not experienced in the art you're learning, it becomes a case of, well, not really the blind leading the blind, but more like a pilot trying to teach how to drive a train. Not the same thing.



I could give you quite a list of systems where, if you want to learn them, your one and only option is to move to Japan. If I want to learn a certain branch of Takenouchi Ryu, for instance, there are no dojos, no instructors, and no access outside of Japan, and even there only in a small part of the country.

So yeah, how important is this particular system to you? Bear in mind, we're not saying that in order to learn any martial art you have to make such effort and sacrifice, but if you've chosen that particular system, for whatever reason, and it's not available to you in your present location/circumstances, you really do have to accept that. Taking short cuts leads to major issues, which is what the DVD method is. You simply cannot learn a martial art from a DVD/book, or anything like that without personal guidance and instruction from someone who already knows the system. At all. The best you can do is copy the actions.

Seriously, this smacks of a misplaced sense of entitlement. Just because you want it doesn't mean it's there for you, you know. And if it's not available to you, well, it's not available to you. Accept or change the situation, and if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Deal with it. Seriously. I understand that you feel you are in special circumstances, but I have to tell you, you're really not. Everyone is in the same situation, where you may not have something you want available to you right now, and you need to accept that. I really want an Aston Martin DB9 Vantage, but you know what? I can't afford one. So my choices are to accept that, or look to altering my life and income so I can, but that may mean leaving behind a great number of things that I love, and it's not a sacrifice that I really want to make. A DB9 would be lovely, but I just don't want it bad enough. And I can accept that.

Your references to being in Afghanistan, or bringing up the memories of your deceased friends is really not the same thing, except in the fact that you need to accept the reality there as well. As you say, wanting it bad enough isn't enough there... but the big difference is that what we mean by "want it bad enough" is more along the lines of "how much are you willing to sacrifice, how far are you willing to go?", not sitting at home going "Oh, I wish, I wish, I wish...".

So how much do you want to learn this system? How far are you willing to go? What can you sacrifice to learn it? How much is it worth to you? You can either learn it, which will mean sacrifice and travel, finding an instructor, and doing it properly, or you can't. But if you can't, I say accept it. And if you can't accept it, frankly, too bad. Wishing and whining won't change it.

As always Chris, you come thru with a great post! The bold parts are the points you hit on, that I was trying to make as well. I used Kajukenbo in one of my posts, as an example. There are no Kaju schools in my area, so I either have to accept the fact that I'll never do Kaju, unless I: A) move to an area where there are schools, b) travel to a state which has a school, and train for a week or 2, come home, practice what I learned, and repeat the process. I mean, I dont know what else to say....its not that difficult to figure out here. LOL. Right now, I'm in a position to do neither, so....I dont do Kaju! Its that simple.

 

[Grenadier]

A DVD only holds an hour or two of time. Even a whole set of 5 DVD's will only have about 10 hours at the most.

Even the simpler martial arts systems are complex things indeed, where proper mechanics must be developed, so that the student will eventually have a solid platform upon which to stand, when it comes time to learn the more advanced material.

Without a competent, watchful eye, you're not going to understand all of the mechanics involved. For that matter, there are even certain orders in which mechanics must be learned, otherwise, the basics never develop.

Unless you are an incredibly gifted / talented individual, you're never going to be able to get all of the basic knowledge from a set of videos, since you don't have anyone to tell you what you're doing wrong. Without those basics, learning the advanced material will be all but useless, except to maybe give you a good physical workout. Even then, I'd still have to question it, since you might be doing something damaging to your joints, etc.

I've trained many students who have attempted to learn a kata from a video, and in each case, I've had to point out that they don't have the correct tension in a particular area of the body, or that they're not using the lower body to power the upper body techniques. As talented as some of these individuals are, they would have *never* discovered this on their own, unless a long time had passed, and they were able to objectively evaluate their own performances. Even then, it would have been a waste of time on their parts to try it that way.

One of the difficult cases were where one student (just made brown belt) had essentially taught himself the kata "Kanku Dai," using videos. While he was able to do the moves in the sequence, the techniques were shoddy. There were many times in his stances, where his legs and feet were wobbly, along with his lacking tension under the arms, and that his kicks were pushing forward, and not snapping forward and backwards. This student was so caught up in learning the sequence, that this student didn't bother making sure that the fundamental techniques used were mechanically correct. All of this happened, despite the fact that he is one of my more highly talented and intelligent students.

He even believed that he was ready to use it at a tournament...

It wasn't until I videotaped the student doing Kanku Dai, and then comparing that video with a solidly performned Kanku Dai done by Hirokazu Kanazawa, that the eyes opened up, and he saw how awful his self-taught kata really was.

 

[MJS]

A DVD only holds an hour or two of time. Even a whole set of 5 DVD's will only have about 10 hours at the most.

Even the simpler martial arts systems are complex things indeed, where proper mechanics must be developed, so that the student will eventually have a solid platform upon which to stand, when it comes time to learn the more advanced material.

Without a competent, watchful eye, you're not going to understand all of the mechanics involved. For that matter, there are even certain orders in which mechanics must be learned, otherwise, the basics never develop.

Unless you are an incredibly gifted / talented individual, you're never going to be able to get all of the basic knowledge from a set of videos, since you don't have anyone to tell you what you're doing wrong. Without those basics, learning the advanced material will be all but useless, except to maybe give you a good physical workout. Even then, I'd still have to question it, since you might be doing something damaging to your joints, etc.

I've trained many students who have attempted to learn a kata from a video, and in each case, I've had to point out that they don't have the correct tension in a particular area of the body, or that they're not using the lower body to power the upper body techniques. As talented as some of these individuals are, they would have *never* discovered this on their own, unless a long time had passed, and they were able to objectively evaluate their own performances. Even then, it would have been a waste of time on their parts to try it that way.

One of the difficult cases were where one student (just made brown belt) had essentially taught himself the kata "Kanku Dai," using videos. While he was able to do the moves in the sequence, the techniques were shoddy. There were many times in his stances, where his legs and feet were wobbly, along with his lacking tension under the arms, and that his kicks were pushing forward, and not snapping forward and backwards. This student was so caught up in learning the sequence, that this student didn't bother making sure that the fundamental techniques used were mechanically correct. All of this happened, despite the fact that he is one of my more highly talented and intelligent students.

He even believed that he was ready to use it at a tournament...

It wasn't until I videotaped the student doing Kanku Dai, and then comparing that video with a solidly performned Kanku Dai done by Hirokazu Kanazawa, that the eyes opened up, and he saw how awful his self-taught kata really was.

Likewise, some of my past Kenpo schools, have offered training guides to the students. These were designed not to learnt he material from, but instead, to help the student review, a reference tool. Many times, I'd have students come in and tell me that they know all of the techs. required for their belt level. Knowing that all of these techs. were not yet covered, it was obvious the student used the guide to learn from.

So, while they were expecting to get praise and perhaps a stripe on their belt for knowing the techs, instead they quickly realized that they had made mistakes, needed fine tuning, etc. and that the road to success is paved with hard work instead of free rides.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, agreed to both Grenadier and MJS here. I am basically running a training group for a Koryu Kenjutsu group presently, and the syllabus is a grand total of 24 sword techniques (kata), 12 for long sword, 7 for short, and 5 for two swords. Each kata is also relatively short, especially when compared to one or two of my other systems. The first kata in the system basically involves an evasive step outside an attack, and a thrust (as you evade) to the throat. Seems simple, yeah? That can surely be taught by DVD without any real problem, right.

I spent over an hour taking two guys through that single kata a while back, constantly refining, correcting, making adjustments on what they were doing (both as the attacker and the defender), and so on. And there is still a lot of work to be done on it. If we spent three months just doing that one kata, we might be able to get through most of the details, and they may have learnt it to a reasonable level.

DVDs cannot offer that, especially if they are 30 minutes to an hour long at the most. Additionally, those refinements come from watching the students performance, which is also something that a DVD doesn't offer at all.

 

[Apache26b]

Noones being Nasty, theyre being Blunt, instead of repeating the same Story over again.Instructed Training > Referential Training.Referential Training + Capable Individual = Good Result.Referential Training + Incapable Individual = Bad Result.Instructed Training + Any Individual = Better Result.Instructed Training By A Bad Instructor = Just as Bad a Result.Referential Training + Experienced Partners = Why do You need the Referential Training if Theyre so Qualified and Talented and Proficient as to be able to Spot every Flaw and cite Years of Experience?If someones been treating You like Youre Inferior for doing it, theyre just not a Nice Person. If Someone is saying they may well be Better due to how Theyre Training, They may well be right, and it is not an Insult.And if You have such Experienced Training Partners, then You dont need DVDs. Learn from them.And as for "What happened to tact and if you can't say anything nice keep your trap shut." - I say, if You want nothing but Positive Outlooks, wheter Affirmative or Negatory, Speak only to those who Agree with You or are Neutral, and not on a Public Discussion Board."Folks like Bill (sorry to single you out) had a negative opinion of dvds but still put his opinions and statements in such a way that they were polite and did not belittle anyone."Who here Belittled You? (Im actually going to go Re-Read the Whole Thread now.)As for How Bad You Want It, that was someone offering Perspective based on what They do, not posing it as Your Only Option.The Bottom Line is, that You cannot Argue in Favor of this kind of Training. You can Justify it. And it is certainly Justifiable under the right Conditions. But as just about everyone has said, its a Question of Quality. If Your best Option is the Quality offered by Referential Training, then Good. If You have a Better Option, which You apparently dont, then thats better.But You dont.So thats Fine.

noone was rude to me. I started this thread after reading the same old stuff over and over again on not just this site bit EVERY ma forum I found (i was searching the net looking for reviews of specific programs) there was someone being scolded for even considering the idea. The question wasn't about this site in particular but that more to ma community ad a whole. And i chose this site because the people here seemed to be the most level headed. I gave my situation at the beginning to suggest that at least in some cases dvds may be acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available. I would like to stress the word good in that last sentence. My original question has been answered. Thanks

 

[Rich Parsons]

One continuous paragraph separated by me so I can read and reply easier.

I was an Infantry team leader and i taught classes om using the army's new gps units and blue force trackers. By the way we used a lot of videos and computer training to do that with.

Did you ever learn something new without having the equipment on hand to touch or play with?
Was the first time you learned about GPS units, did you do it a vacuum, i.e. no equipment all video?

And don't you think at least a few of your examples were just a tad bit obserd?

Do I think them Absurd? No.

I was talking to a friend of mine at the hospital i work at and one of the docters was in the room. He said he has a friend who is a brain sergion. You know how they pass along new tequnices? No they don't all meet in the brain sewing dojo and practice on brains. They watch films (evil dvd's) lol. Like the man said you can't learn to be a sergion by watching dvd's. But you can learn new procedures that way. I think if they can figure out how to stitch up someone's nuget that way someone with a good background and a good training partner can learn martial arts.

WOW, A trained Brian Surgeon watches a video and gets to learn a nuance or new technique. Yes I can see that. I also see a Master instructor in a system watching a video and going that is wrong or that is new or that is interesting. But they have lots of experience in what they are doing.
Question: Can those Brain Surgeons change the oil in their car? Or the spark Plugs? I am sure they are capable with the right training, and they might be able to watch a video and realize the location and do it. But I expect they would spill the oil all over and or drop something down into the cylinder. Oppps. Yet, over time they would get better and better and then watching a video could help them, but they are ALREADY TRAINED at the subject at hand then.

Yes even whatever deadly and misterious art you know.

Nothing mysterious, if you had read my profile (* I am using your own responses back at you *) you might ave realized what I train and teach. As my ID is my name you could have done a search on this site or even on the internet.
By the way, Nice Passive aggressive insult and attack though. Did I make you think? Did I challenge your world view? If so, then good. But, your anger should not be at me, if you seem something that needs to be reviewed or changed.

As for your "issue" with my distance from any good schools, other than the 2 I already mentioned the closest school from me is 2 hours one way.

I have no issue. I have no ownership in your training. I do get asked all the time to come and train people for free because they cannot drive to train with me. Seriously? Yes.
I drove over an hour one way in good traffic, in bad traffic it could be two or three hours one way. I paid for private lessons to improve myself and my training. Many others did not do it as it was too far to drive or the cost was too much. So they did not have the priority I or others did. If you do not set it as a priority then how can anyone help you with your training.

I am a dissabled vet so springing for that kinda money is kinda out of the question for me. Unless you would like to chip in. Lol And that last patagraph.

Disabled. I am sorry to hear that. I am an engineer and I have the Knack (* insert screams here – to keep it light and upbeat as you suggested *). More people will have respect for you and that is cool.
By the way are you really Apache? If not can I have my COUNTRY and land back? I will ask kindly. Please.

Lol WOW Are you trying to keep me off drugs or dvd's? That sounds like something from an after school special. Look at your self and realise where you are, my question to you is how important is thos to you. Very melodromatic.

Not Dramatic at all. Just in your face real life questions. I would have expected anyone who capitalized ARMY and been in for 7.5 years (* which meant you got out early either through injury or medical (* physical or mental *) or other than honorable or ... *) so I figured you could take someone getting in your face with direct questions. If I hurt your feelings, that was not my intention.

If you will look back at my posts I am not new to the martial arts at all. I do have expierianced partners to work with. And my question was by no meens what was anyone's opinion of dvd training. It was why are folks who ask about it almost always beraited with anything but encouragement.

Why do I need to review all your posts and posting history here? Ok. I will. After you give me a summary of my posting history here and do some of your own homework on this site. (* Once again using your own responses back at you to see how you respond. HINT: Search for me and look in the Great Debate are before you decide to nuclear on me and yourself. *)

I have been an assistant instructor at more than one schools.

Assistant instructor? Ok I have a yellow belt and they sometimes work with white belts. I guess they could be called an assistant instructor. Is this the case? Did you just travel around and train for a while and not get rank? Or did you get rank in something?

I have been an assistant instructor at more than one schools. I don't mean to come off as rude but I don't need and didn't ask for anyone's opinion.

But (* But re used to negate the previous statement or to contradict them *), You did ask why? This, by the way is asking for people’s opinions. I will grant you as an engineer most of the general population will not consider me a person or people, so you may not have been asking for my opinion specifically. I will grant you that point in this debate.

I just wondeted why the mention of them makes everyone so mean and mad.

I was not mean. I was not mad. I asked specific questions and you got mad and mean with the insults and passive aggressive attitude. Maybe if you go back and look at those other threads you might see that something similar may have happened.
Just because two people disagree does not mean that they are being mean or insulting each other.

It's like that person training in that manner robs the ones who go to the dojo of something.

This sentence is not connecting to the rest, nor does it make sense to me. I apologize for not understanding you here. Can you explain your point you were trying to make? Thanks.

As for questioning me if I am taking the easy way out you don't know me so I will try and not take that as the insult I usualy do.

That is good as I did not mean to insult a I stated, yet to ask specific questions for you and others reading this thread to think and review and then decide to respond or to do something about it themselves or both.

But I asure you it isn't that. And don't get too ticked at my quips at ya.

So you used “But”. Does that mean I did insult you? Or does that mean you did take it so? Or that you usually don’t but in this case you do?
As to your remarks, I know where I am in my training and teaching. I know what I am capable of doing and support. I have asked the questions, and I asked them of myself from time to time to see if I am still on the right path. I personally see nothing wrong with that. Yet, I really wonder if you were not being passive aggressive to try to get me to reply mean or insulting so you write, “LOOK! He is being mean to me so my point was right!” Because many people just have to be right. When it is possible for both to be right, yet there are those who think others have to be wrong as the only way they can be right.

I'm just trying to keep the mood as light as possible.

I see you wrote this. Yet, I wonder as I have stated. We will see depending upon your reply if any. If you reply back seriously and on topic then that is so. If you reply LOL and move on then maybe. If you reply back with insults veiled or direct, then I will have to wonder if you are not being trollish.

Some folks seem to get pretty mad about this subject.

Not me. I do not have a horse in this race. I have an opinion as an instructor and a senior in two arts that I teach to pass on to others.

 

[Cyriacus]

noone was rude to me. I started this thread after reading the same old stuff over and over again on not just this site bit EVERY ma forum I found (i was searching the net looking for reviews of specific programs) there was someone being scolded for even considering the idea. The question wasn't about this site in particular but that more to ma community ad a whole. And i chose this site because the people here seemed to be the most level headed. I gave my situation at the beginning to suggest that at least in some cases dvds may be acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available. I would like to stress the word good in that last sentence. My original question has been answered. Thanks

Glad You got what You wanted

Id advise Emphasizing the Underlined Part in Future though - That way noone will jump to any Conclusions.

 

[Chris Parker]

noone was rude to me. I started this thread after reading the same old stuff over and over again on not just this site bit EVERY ma forum I found (i was searching the net looking for reviews of specific programs) there was someone being scolded for even considering the idea. The question wasn't about this site in particular but that more to ma community ad a whole. And i chose this site because the people here seemed to be the most level headed. I gave my situation at the beginning to suggest that at least in some cases dvds may be acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available. I would like to stress the word good in that last sentence. My original question has been answered. Thanks

So let's get this straight....

No-one was rude to you, or nasty to you, and your question was based on the way you saw people responding to this type of question in many places, rather than just here, yet you posted as if it was the responces you saw on this site? Additionally you saw the same opinion of DVD/Book learning as a primary method no matter where you went, or who was answering, yet you were still looking for someone here to tell you that it was an acceptable alternative if "good instruction" wasn't immediately accessible to you? Why would you think you would get a different answer than every single other answer you'd seen from everyone else no matter what site you were looking on?

And as far as "acceptable as an alternative when good instruction is not available", to be blunt again, it is available. You just aren't in a position to take advantage of it, or to make the sacrifices required to take advantage of it. Takenouchi Ryu is available to me, with good instruction, all I have to do is move to Japan, get an introduction, make a good impression, learn the language, be respectful, and train hard. Simple!

Oh, and "as an alternative", honestly, it's not an alternative. Mainly as it's not really instruction. Not without feedback. So what you're actually saying is "if I don't want to attend any of the schools available to me, and don't/feel I can't do what I need to do to learn from a school I'd be happier to attend, can I just get these DVDs and learn the system?", and the answer is "no". Even the best DVD's are only as good as an instructor who shows something, then leaves the room, providing no feedback, no correction, and so on. You'd actually be better off at the bad school with the DVD's as a supplement, as the "live" school would provide you with people to train with, and a frame of reference to allow you to actually get something out of the DVD's... but that only works if it's the same system, or an incredibly similar one (honestly, even if it is an incredibly similar one, you can still get it completely wrong by going from the DVD's).

I'll see if I can show you what I mean.

This first clip is a group who have no direct instructor, with their teacher passing away a number of years ago.

This next group is the mainline, under the current Soke, getting personal attention and correction as they progress.

And this is a clip which shows the current Soke teaching, and correcting finer details of the short sword kata, such as the body position, which can be missed, mis-interpretted, or just completely wrong if someone isn't there correcting you as you go.

Hopefully you can see what we mean by actual instruction, as well as the pitfalls of not having proper instruction in the first place.

 

[punisher73]

Anyone else find it funny to compare fighting to brain surgery?

Just as an example of learning via video with no instructor. UFC Champion Evan Tanner, had no grappling teacher. He learned from watching videos and then getting together with friends and training the heck out of it until they could get it to work.

This discussion is really about learning to fight vs. passing on an artform or learning a style. If you are learning to fight, then the most important part is getting lots of training partners and practicing your material. If it's wrong, it is very self-correcting. If you are looking for subtleties and an artform, then you are going to need a person trained in that specific method that knows all of the material and details.

But, MANY good fighters learned through trial and error by getting into lots of fights. Painful, but not brain surgery and not all that dificult.