I would also like to add that the person with the most Google hits or the person that charges the most, or the person with the most knock outs or wins is rarely the best martial artist, fighter, or teacher. Learn what you can from the person you're with and move on to learn some more when they have nothing more to teach you.
Yudansha Fighting System/Association??
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, settle down. Honestly, you're not helping yourself, or Mr Veros by any of this.
Then you need to be able to counter and give what you feel is correct information. For the record, you have not done that.
Yeahā¦ as said, the forum rank is nothing to do with any rank held in the real world, or any particular systemā¦ for a couple of reasons. One is that it's just a fun, martial art-like way of saying who is the more experienced and senior members of the forum (based on post number), another is that we are not arbitrators of people's external ranksā¦ I could come along and claim to be a 28th Danā¦ how does the site recognise that, or verify it? But, more importantly, your rank outside of here is largely besides the pointā¦ your experience can help inform your opinions and views, but that's slightly unrelatedā¦ and the need to have an ego fulfilled by having strangers here acknowledge a rank you may or may not hold in an art we don't train in is not a good sign.
You might be best off actually linking the pictureā¦ I, for one, have no idea which one you're talking about. I will say that the date of 1987 doesn't mean much in making your case, thoughā¦ as it was one year later that Mike Veros started the "Yudansha Fighting System"ā¦ which matches with the history that both Tony and Kirk found.
So, as a teenager, over 20 years ago, you trained under him for a short time, and he didn't charge you much? And this means that his highly doubtable high Danzan Ryu ranking is perfectly legitimate becauseā¦? The myriad issues on the old website (pity it's no longer up) are not issues, because you, as a 17 year old, enjoyed the class?
Yeah, all this tells us is that you enjoyed him as a teacher, and found value. Honestly, that's great. Howeverā¦ that does nothing to dissuade any of the issues we found, with Mike's claimed rankings, time in study in Danzan Ryu, or the comments of the other people who knew him. Frankly, whether he gave you the keys, or charged you $500 an hour means nothing in regards to what we are talking about.
In your estimation.
Fellow students would agree that he was "the best they had ever seen"? Really? They may have liked the guy (or not), but one feels that, if they all felt that way, they would have followed him when he started his new thing, yeah?
Dude. It's a world-wide siteā¦ people are asleep, people are at work, and you've resurrected a thread from 4 years ago. Settle.
I have little to no idea what you think you're saying hereā¦ the guy with the best record and reputation isn't the best, because you all said mean things about the guy I liked?
Really?
Again, this means absolutely nothing.
Look, I get that you want to defend someone you obviously got something of value fromā¦ but you haven't really done anything of the kind. You've said that, over 20 years ago, as a teenager, you trained with Mike for a short time (until he moved due to being in the military), and you think, based on your experience then, that he was good. Okay. But none of that really means anything with regard to the issues brought up.
Then you need to be able to counter and give what you feel is correct information. For the record, you have not done that.
Yeahā¦ as said, the forum rank is nothing to do with any rank held in the real world, or any particular systemā¦ for a couple of reasons. One is that it's just a fun, martial art-like way of saying who is the more experienced and senior members of the forum (based on post number), another is that we are not arbitrators of people's external ranksā¦ I could come along and claim to be a 28th Danā¦ how does the site recognise that, or verify it? But, more importantly, your rank outside of here is largely besides the pointā¦ your experience can help inform your opinions and views, but that's slightly unrelatedā¦ and the need to have an ego fulfilled by having strangers here acknowledge a rank you may or may not hold in an art we don't train in is not a good sign.
You might be best off actually linking the pictureā¦ I, for one, have no idea which one you're talking about. I will say that the date of 1987 doesn't mean much in making your case, thoughā¦ as it was one year later that Mike Veros started the "Yudansha Fighting System"ā¦ which matches with the history that both Tony and Kirk found.
So, as a teenager, over 20 years ago, you trained under him for a short time, and he didn't charge you much? And this means that his highly doubtable high Danzan Ryu ranking is perfectly legitimate becauseā¦? The myriad issues on the old website (pity it's no longer up) are not issues, because you, as a 17 year old, enjoyed the class?
Yeah, all this tells us is that you enjoyed him as a teacher, and found value. Honestly, that's great. Howeverā¦ that does nothing to dissuade any of the issues we found, with Mike's claimed rankings, time in study in Danzan Ryu, or the comments of the other people who knew him. Frankly, whether he gave you the keys, or charged you $500 an hour means nothing in regards to what we are talking about.
In your estimation.
Fellow students would agree that he was "the best they had ever seen"? Really? They may have liked the guy (or not), but one feels that, if they all felt that way, they would have followed him when he started his new thing, yeah?
Dude. It's a world-wide siteā¦ people are asleep, people are at work, and you've resurrected a thread from 4 years ago. Settle.
I have little to no idea what you think you're saying hereā¦ the guy with the best record and reputation isn't the best, because you all said mean things about the guy I liked?
Really?
Again, this means absolutely nothing.
Look, I get that you want to defend someone you obviously got something of value fromā¦ but you haven't really done anything of the kind. You've said that, over 20 years ago, as a teenager, you trained with Mike for a short time (until he moved due to being in the military), and you think, based on your experience then, that he was good. Okay. But none of that really means anything with regard to the issues brought up.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Easy there, friend.
It's just a forum thing reflecting the number of posts you've made. It will automatically update as you make more posts.
Why not stop by the "Meet and Greet" section of the forum and make a post introducing yourself and telling us about your 30 years of training?
I assume you are reacting to Kirk's recounting of what he was told by his Danzan Ryu friends and not my description of my training time in the Yudansha system. If so, you haven't given much to directly dispute that story. No one has denigrated Mr. Varos's ability as a martial artist or instructor. The story had more to do with Mike's time spent training under Ancho, his rank in Danzan Ryu, and the politics of the split.
Not having been involved at the time of the split, I have no idea regarding the truth of how long Mike Varos trained in Danzan Ryu or what rank he held at the time. I do know it's not uncommon for new styles to be born in such a way, when a talented student breaks out on his own with only a limited amount of training. The quality of the resulting system probably has to do a lot with the degree to which the founder and his students continue to grow and learn over the years.
One new data point I will add to the discussion. One of my old Yudansha training partners, Jim "J.R." Rosenthal, got his BJJ black belt around the same time I did. Despite being a BJJ black belt and having his own school, J.R. still brings his old Yudansha instructors (Brian and Mark) in for occasional seminars. That would indicate that he finds value in what they are teaching. (I haven't seen Brian or Mark in well over a decade, so I don't personally know what their current skill level is like. I haven't seen Mike Varos in even longer, so I wouldn't want to evaluate his current skill level without seeing him either.)
lklawson
Grandmaster
You can't speak for other people. At the very best this is an "Appeal to Authority." At worst, you're putting words in their mouths which they never spoke.
Hell, what do I know. I'm only quoting an eye witness who is ranked to Mastery in the system. So what would he know? Hmmm... Take your word or the word of an eye witness to the events who is still in the area, still teaching Danzan, and ranked to 6th Dan within Danzan... Lemme think about this for a minute...
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Well, he apparently posted at around 1:30 AM local time to me (Dayton, Ohio, USA) so, frankly, I was asleep. Last night I was at Judo teaching one my brown belts how to create a sort of generic lesson plan for class to "plug in" a technique for instruction to students. It was an "administrative" session. Then a few of us went and visited Bob Spraley's grave-site to pay our respects.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
If this was directed at me, yes I have nothing to add. No I was not looking anything up, as I had never said anything bad about Mike Veros, and beyond this thread I have no clue who he is.
If it was directed at one of the three people who have since responded, do you just assume they are on this site 24/7, to respond to everything within an hour?
When exactly did you train with Mike? You mention him having his own school, so I'm guessing it was at some point after he split from Danzan Ryu?
0535h my time, definitely asleep but as I've never heard of any of the people or the style mentioned it wouldn't have mattered if I were up
I knew Sensei Mike Veros well. I trained at his dojo, called "Yudansha" from 1992 to 1995. At the time, he called it Danzan-Ryu jujitsu. I've not talked to him or heard from him since then when he moved to Colarado with the Air Force, and I went to college. He formed a "Yudansha" association probably in 1995, and my member number is in the single digits. I don't have a lot to compare to, as my martial arts career topped out a few years later after doing judo in college, but I can put a little detail on this topic. The photo metioned earler with Ancho Sensei is here: Redirect Notice. Sensei Mike is immediately to the left (as you look at the photo). Senseis Brian, Michael, and Desmond who worked under Mike are also in the photo. An alternate in UFC3 trained with us for learning how to grapple. I forgot his name. Mike was an excellent grappler and teacher. I don't actually think he was a great businessman or marketer. When I was there, we started going to judo and jujitsu tournaments, and we won about as often as we lost. As far as fluffing his accomplishments or skills, that would be very out of character of what I knew of him.
lklawson
Grandmaster
I would like to put a reply to this thread because this makes it seem like he is some kind of marketing person that is trying to scam people. He was there at Wright Patterson Air Force Base because he was stationed there in the Air Force he was transferred out of the area because the Air Force transferred him . this has nothing to do with martial arts marketing. He trained military personnel in various places during his career. Many of his students started their own school and used his name on Their website. many of these have nothing to do with Mike Veros. The last I heard from him he was teaching Marines hand to hand combat in Okinawa but this was secondhand knowledge from a student that was in the class when I learned from him. Just because some of his students want to make a name for themselves I donāt think that itās fair to use his name to disparage his learning under Professor Ancho. I learned from him in the early 90s. I am aware that a student that studied with Mike Veros under Ancho claims to be his only student authorized to teach. I learned this from one of TAMAs students Who challenged me to a fight because his teacher had been teaching this nonsense. I think that kind of discussion is just posturing to make your school look better than somebody elseās and has nothing actually to do with real martial arts experience
This idea that he waited till he left the area is ridiculous he left the area and then there was a void and two schools emerged Mike Veraās continued to teach at Wright Patterson Air Force Base and the person that this gentleman is talking about started his own school and was very successful I think the very successful businessman that was scamming people could not possibly describe Mike Veros
As Professor ancho did Mike Veros continued to serve the military and train military personnel as well as law enforcement. He continued to teach people with very little pay and in his spare time after his responsibilities in the US military. And he never scammed anybody because he was happy to teach people for free if they cannot afford it
The reason this makes me so angry is because this is the exact same kind of rhetoric that the TAMA school was touting when Mike Veraās was teaching in Beavercreek. This was never mentioned once to me under Mike Veros in Beaver Creek. Mike Veros did not talk **** about other schools. That should be the first clue. I went to Beaver Creek high school with one of the students that studied at TAMA, And he challenged me to a fight as I said earlier and when I went to his house to discuss it with him he explained all of this to me. This is all just high school BS. I never studied at the TAMA school so I have no idea what theyāre teaching other than what this person told me. But I can tell you that this student that challenged me was a black belt that had been there for years by his account. I had studied under Mike Veros for about a year and just earned a brown belt. He was not very good . Letās just leave it at that, but what I did learn from him is that there was some kind of ridiculous rivalry that apparently Mike Veros never talked about but the instructor at TAMA never quit talking about. But I guess the real question isā¦is that professor Ancho was famous for teaching at Wright Patterson Air Force Baseā¦Why was it Mike Veros that continued to teach at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base after he left If the guy from Tama was the chosen one? Mike Veros taught actual warriors who actually fought in the US military. He didnāt concern himself with high school kids who thought that Tama was a better school. Even though everybody at the high school knew the TAMA Guys were all talk while
the military police at Wright Patt were learning from Mike Veros. I wasnāt in the military I was a high school student learning from Mike , Michael, Brian, Desmond, Pete, And many other great black and brown belts that started there But I can tell you that none of those TAMA students That I sparred with were good enough to make me switch schools Even though they out ranked me by far
the military police at Wright Patt were learning from Mike Veros. I wasnāt in the military I was a high school student learning from Mike , Michael, Brian, Desmond, Pete, And many other great black and brown belts that started there But I can tell you that none of those TAMA students That I sparred with were good enough to make me switch schools Even though they out ranked me by far
And you people that keep bringing up that you canāt find the stuff on Google there was no google in 1990. Those of us that have been studying for 30 or 40 years understand that Being good at marketing and being good at Martial arts is not the same thing
By the way youāre not a master just because youāve been studying for 5 to 10 years. Buying a black belt and earning a black belt are two different things.
lklawson
Grandmaster
That's nice but it's a reply to stuff that I didn't write. Re-read what I wrote.
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