Why should law enforcement officers train BJJ?

[CoachRonald]

I am pretty sure there were no guns, knives or other weapons in you ADCC turnaments?.

From my part, I've never gone armed to any turnament and believe people dont usually do it in hand to hand, sporting contexts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi dears comrades,

Nowadays everybody seems to be aware of the importance of BJJ being part of the routine of training. There are many reasons to become adept, but in the case of military and law eforcement officers it seems like there was a remaining doubt if it is an appropriated way to become able to defend one self and reach the best preparedness as a training program enables. So here are some good reasons I would like to share with all of you guys that still hesitate.

Regards

Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel

Okay, that seems to be the same non-communicative video you posted on the other thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That clip NEVER gets old.

Yeah, I kinda hope that jitser is getting royalties somewhere.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course. It would be the rule, but in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments. Regarding this video, it's common among the new schools. However, even though it seems ugly and ridiculous, it's not expected a non JJ practionner to survive, once get into the guard.

While I'm a big fan of BJJ's groundwork, I'm not a fan of putting it on a pedestal. BJJ is not inherently superior to wrestling by efficiency - that's a person-by-person issue.

 

[JR 137]

While I'm a big fan of BJJ's groundwork, I'm not a fan of putting it on a pedestal. BJJ is not inherently superior to wrestling by efficiency - that's a person-by-person issue.

Both have a lot to learn from each other. Wrestling teaches takedowns, throws, and really keeping the intensity high. BJJ teaches submission, chokes, and I’m assuming patience.

One thing most wrestlers aren’t is patient. 2 minute periods don’t leave much time to let you work for position. You can, but nothing like the BJJ I’ve seen. If you see a waiting game in wrestling, it’s typically done when a guy totally outclasses his opponent and is just looking for more mat time to stay sharp.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

BJJ is not inherently superior to wrestling by efficiency - that's a person-by-person issue.

You have to have take down skill before you can apply your ground skill. For police officers, the take down skill is more important than the ground skill.

 

[JR 137]

You have to have take down skill before you can apply your ground skill. For police officers, the take down skill is more important than the ground skill.

I’m not a LEO, but I don’t see that as correct - the takedown skill more important than the ground skill. Once they’ve got them to the ground, they need to keep control if they’re going to hold them until backup arrives, and especially if they’re going to handcuff them.

I’d assume both skills are equally important.

 

[drop bear]

I’m not a LEO, but I don’t see that as correct - the takedown skill more important than the ground skill. Once they’ve got them to the ground, they need to keep control if they’re going to hold them until backup arrives, and especially if they’re going to handcuff them.

I’d assume both skills are equally important.

And it is not even as cut and dried as that.

So for example. Wrestling has better arm isolations and two on one control. Which have a few practical benefits like standing restraints and weapon defence.

 

[punisher73]

Hi Punisher73,
I understand this difficulty that you have reported us. Unfortunately nowadays the justice treats criminals as victims of society. However, on the other hand there is plenty of non-lethal and less harmful jiu-jitsu technique. To subdue the opponent without hurting him, we need to control the space and make the right gripe (1) which has been improved by the bjj and nowadays the are doing by Americans Combatives.
In terms of lethality, a suplex can lead the thieves to death or not, expends unnecessarily energy (2).

1-

2-

What "less harmful JJ techniques" are there? I have only been exposed/seen submissions and chokes, both are a no-no in many states for LEO's unless it is a deadly force situation.

Also, the main question of the thread was should LEO's train BJJ. When it was pointed out that wrestling would probably be more beneficial for the time and what an officer faces you altered on about "American Combatives" and how that incorporated wrestling and Judo grips etc. which was more beneficial.

 

[dvcochran]

Both have a lot to learn from each other. Wrestling teaches takedowns, throws, and really keeping the intensity high. BJJ teaches submission, chokes, and I’m assuming patience.

One thing most wrestlers aren’t is patient. 2 minute periods don’t leave much time to let you work for position. You can, but nothing like the BJJ I’ve seen. If you see a waiting game in wrestling, it’s typically done when a guy totally outclasses his opponent and is just looking for more mat time to stay sharp.

I wrestled in high school and I remember it being a Long 2 minutes. You are always in a push/pull or straining. You make a very good point about BJJ ending things quickly after you get to the ground.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

in spite of the specialization, the wrestling and judo training are characterized by unnecessary movements, energetically irrationals. On the other hand JJ optmized some of these techniques by adpting them to a different scenario as it can be verifyed in the ADCC turnaments.

Speaking as a black belt BJJ instructor who is trying to improve my wrestling and Judo skill, I have to strongly disagree with this. Judo and wrestling are both just as technical as BJJ. The difference in training approaches tends to be the result of different competition rule sets.

A grappler who wants to be able to apply their skill in a real world context (self-defense or law enforcement) would do well to explore the mindset of all three approaches.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Wrestling and BJJ both would be good skillsets to have for LEO. Some experience in both would be even better.
After a BJJ student has basics under their belt and they start to make their BJJ their own, you see some become really good guard players that excel at being on the bottom. You see others who have a really good offensive top game - different sides to the same coin, in a way. They both have merits, but the top player who can takedown, control, pin, and submit someone without ever putting their back on the ground is a huge asset to have in encounters LEOs might face, I would think.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To spend training time in the following skill will not be able to help any law enforcement officers.

In fairness, this is not exactly typical of even sport-focused BJJ schools. Even BJJ practitioners mostly find it funny. The individual in that clip was just having some fun within the confines of the tournament rules. (I also understand that he won the match via submission shortly after the end of the time shown in the clip.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Both have a lot to learn from each other. Wrestling teaches takedowns, throws, and really keeping the intensity high. BJJ teaches submission, chokes, and I’m assuming patience.

To my mind, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and related arts are just different facets of the same gem. They all come down to understanding base, posture, structure, force vectors, and leverage and using them to manipulate an opponent's body while keeping the opponent from doing the same in return. The variance in training mindset and application come down to differences in culture and/or competition rules. The underlying principles are (IMO) more important than the differences. (Although it's worth exploring the differences, since they illustrate how a principle may apply in difference contexts.)

 

[JR 137]

To my mind, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and related arts are just different facets of the same gem. They all come down to understanding base, posture, structure, force vectors, and leverage and using them to manipulate an opponent's body while keeping the opponent from doing the same in return. The variance in training mindset and application come down to differences in culture and/or competition rules. The underlying principles are (IMO) more important than the differences. (Although it's worth exploring the differences, since they illustrate how a principle may apply in difference contexts.)

Excellent points and post. I know very little of the others beside wrestling; all I know is what I’ve seen in various videos and conversations with practitioners.

From everything I’ve seen, the core principles are exactly the same (as you articulately pointed out). The differences that are outright seen are more of a tweak for competition rules and/or specialization of a skill subset. Barring competition rules, what works in one art will pretty much work in all of them, all things being equal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To my mind, BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Sambo, and related arts are just different facets of the same gem. They all come down to understanding base, posture, structure, force vectors, and leverage and using them to manipulate an opponent's body while keeping the opponent from doing the same in return. The variance in training mindset and application come down to differences in culture and/or competition rules. The underlying principles are (IMO) more important than the differences. (Although it's worth exploring the differences, since they illustrate how a principle may apply in difference contexts.)

With my meager Judo background, passing familiarity with BJJ, and the fact that I've heard of both Sambo and wrestling, I can say authoritatively that you are correct.

 

[JR 137]

With my meager Judo background, passing familiarity with BJJ, and the fact that I've heard of both Sambo and wrestling, I can say authoritatively that you are correct.

With my wrestling experience, my one night of open mat judo, talking to a few friends who do BJJ, and two former wrestlers who train BJJ... I concur.

 

[CoachRonald]

What "less harmful JJ techniques" are there? I have only been exposed/seen submissions and chokes, both are a no-no in many states for LEO's unless it is a deadly force situation.

Also, the main question of the thread was should LEO's train BJJ. When it was pointed out that wrestling would probably be more beneficial for the time and what an officer faces you altered on about "American Combatives" and how that incorporated wrestling and Judo grips etc. which was more beneficial.

There are as many less injuring techniques as the motional possibilities of BJJ. According Blanton [1], American Combatives is not a hand to hand system oriented to taking downs like Sambo/Systema, but essentially to developing the ground fighting skills being inspired on BJJ. In the atmosphere of hand to hand combat, regardless of some techiniques are verified in more than one system like judo, sambo and wrestling, the efectiveness is not the same, since it's conditioned by the dynamics along wich the techiniques are improved. This is not an empirical reality but a scientific datum. Take a look at Osipov et al's paper. The results showed the implications of the ground work skills deficit.

- HAND TO HAND COMBATIVES IN THE US ARMY

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ada511484

- Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel


- Analysis level of the special proficiency of cadets and officers of the Internal Affairs authorities of the Russian Federation to the physical interdictory effort by criminals

Analysis level of the special proficiency of cadets and officers of the Internal Affairs authorities of the Russian Federation to the physical interdictory effort by criminals | SibFU

 

[punisher73]

There are as many less injuring techniques as the motional possibilities of BJJ. According Blanton [1], American Combatives is not a hand to hand system oriented to taking downs like Sambo/Systema, but essentially to developing the ground fighting skills being inspired on BJJ. In the atmosphere of hand to hand combat, regardless of some techiniques are verified in more than one system like judo, sambo and wrestling, the efectiveness is not the same, since it's conditioned by the dynamics along wich the techiniques are improved. This is not an empirical reality but a scientific datum. Take a look at Osipov et al's paper. The results showed the implications of the ground work skills deficit.

- HAND TO HAND COMBATIVES IN THE US ARMY

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ada511484

- Strategic-tactical optimization in hand-to-hand combat: the mastery of grappling as a determining factor in encounters

Publishers Panel


- Analysis level of the special proficiency of cadets and officers of the Internal Affairs authorities of the Russian Federation to the physical interdictory effort by criminals

Analysis level of the special proficiency of cadets and officers of the Internal Affairs authorities of the Russian Federation to the physical interdictory effort by criminals | SibFU

First, you never have stated or named any of the less injuring techniques.

Second, the H2H Comabtives study you posted concluded that grappling was not the best for soldiers in the battlefield and was too ground focused and needed to add in striking. It emphasized that going to the ground was the last place a soldier wanted to be, but that was the entire premise of the MACP that the Army taught. As a side note, the US Army Rangers were the first to bring in BJJ for training and they were open that it had nothing to do with combat fighting, but had to do with developing mental toughness and struggling against a resisting opponent with lower risk of injury in training.

In the second study you posted, it talked about grappling in a combat sport environment. I don't think anyone here would deny the need for BJJ based skills if you are competing in MMA.

You have repeatedly failed to show why LEO's NEED BJJ as opposed to basic wrestling skills taught.

 

[drop bear]

First, you never have stated or named any of the less injuring techniques.

Second, the H2H Comabtives study you posted concluded that grappling was not the best for soldiers in the battlefield and was too ground focused and needed to add in striking. It emphasized that going to the ground was the last place a soldier wanted to be, but that was the entire premise of the MACP that the Army taught. As a side note, the US Army Rangers were the first to bring in BJJ for training and they were open that it had nothing to do with combat fighting, but had to do with developing mental toughness and struggling against a resisting opponent with lower risk of injury in training.

In the second study you posted, it talked about grappling in a combat sport environment. I don't think anyone here would deny the need for BJJ based skills if you are competing in MMA.

You have repeatedly failed to show why LEO's NEED BJJ as opposed to basic wrestling skills taught.

A lot of the advantage of recommending BJJ for police is its consistency. You can move around. Drop in to a BJJ school and it will be more likely to good than bad.

And although i think there are elements that are not the best progression for police. The methods do work.

Same reason I ride a KLR pretty much. It is just that reliable known quantity for someone who may not really understand what he is buying.