Why should law enforcement officers train BJJ?

[Gerry Seymour]

According to the industry trainers who asses such things. And how do they asses these things? Well they ask the experts. Who just happen to be industry trainers. Who agree that the system is proven to work.

Mate I did PPCT. Tried it on real live people. It didn't work.

The next course. (forced by the way. not my choice) got canned by my instructor. Who had less martial arts experience and less time in the job. About my lack of cares given about the whole shambling mess that was the course.

And his response was the industry standard. That using the system with your head on the line does not qualify someone to have an opinion on that system. Only being an instructor in that system would allow someone to be able to judge if the system actually works.

And of course it was proven effective every day by thousands of people that were not here at the moment. In incidents that were not in evidence anywhere. And if I wanted to pass the course and therefore keep my licence I had better just shut up about it.

So I did. And gritted my teeth through the shambles. And then went out on my own volition and trained in a system that might actually give me some results.

Which is why we have 4 cops training BJJ and wrestling with us. And not doing the industry standard.

Which is why police around the world go on their own time to these external classes.

Now this is not saying an industry standard training can't be any good. But I would not expect it to be good.

All of this is not my problem to fix. And it is not only my opinion. This is what I hear as standard. And If the game of defensive tactics isn't well regarded. Then it is the job of defensive tactics to either sepparate themselves as a cut above the average. Or live with the fact that it is a course designed to pass a certificate in order to mitigate liability. Not a course designed to pass on practical knowledge.

And while I am on a rant here. Can I point out I did a certificate of instruction the other day on how to blow up a baloon. Yeah. Industry training.

High levels of dissatisfaction.
EmeraldInsight

Victorian police don't like theirs.
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Industry experts say suck it up buttercup.

Even if the industry training was always good, you'd still find folks training outside it. Why? Because the standard, required training is too short. That's not a failing of the training, though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We dont do it in school. We play football instead. And swim.

Other sports are more dominant here in the US (US football, soccer, baseball, basketball), but wrestling is still (as far as I know) among the fairly standard sports to be found in high schools. I've never seen Judo in grade school, though it does exist at the college level to some extent.

 

[JR 137]

Wrestling is a lot harder to do as an adult, even in the USA. While every high school and middle school has a wrestling team, I can’t think of one wrestling club for adults. BJJ is all over the place, and Judo isn’t too hard to find.

There are a lot of wrestling clubs for adults. They’re not nearly as common as MA, but they’re out there. They typically consist of off-season college wrestlers and ex-college wrestlers.

If you’ve got a local college with a wrestling team, you’ve probably got an wrestling club somewhere. I’ve noticed a lot of wrestling clubs that cater to high school students have a smaller adults group too.

Wrestling’s popularity is a bit regional, so could make it harder to find. Wrestling’s biggest areas are the Midwest and probably the Northeast. It’s like hockey and lacrosse in a sense.

 

[CoachRonald]

First, you never have stated or named any of the less injuring techniques.

Second, the H2H Comabtives study you posted concluded that grappling was not the best for soldiers in the battlefield and was too ground focused and needed to add in striking. It emphasized that going to the ground was the last place a soldier wanted to be, but that was the entire premise of the MACP that the Army taught. As a side note, the US Army Rangers were the first to bring in BJJ for training and they were open that it had nothing to do with combat fighting, but had to do with developing mental toughness and struggling against a resisting opponent with lower risk of injury in training.

In the second study you posted, it talked about grappling in a combat sport environment. I don't think anyone here would deny the need for BJJ based skills if you are competing in MMA.

You have repeatedly failed to show why LEO's NEED BJJ as opposed to basic wrestling skills taught.

Dear punisher123

Except those techniques that are already forbidden by modality rules in high level for their high idexes of injuries, the allowed ones if applied in moderated way have low harmufulness. Obviously it requires control in dosing the force applied in the blow execution, but as an advantage of BJJ that enables sparrings at high intensity it comes naturally with practice. If you become able to applied a hold or submission in a training partner without hurt him capting the time of his tapping you'll able to apply a submission to the opponent on the street. Jiu Jitsu is soft art but it requires hard training, good attendence like all sports. However, in terms of time of practice to reach this science of control the intensity of the blows and having a global vision of bjj as software art it take more time as the witness of majority athletes of MMA.

Regarding the paper, a depper reading could bring a better understanding. The main point of the Blanton' paper is the comparison of the Mordern America Combatives with other hand to hand system.
He pointed out that BJJ is the main surce of AC whose dynamic is orientated to the ground finght. Besides, according the official doccument 'strinking is not an efficient way to incapacite the enemy' and 'chokes was the best way to ending a fight'. Take a deeper reading. Osipov pointed out the main vulnerabilities presented by LEO were attacks from the ground so he suggeat the revision of teaching methods. Blanton remarked that main focus of Sambo is take downs techiques. The Osipov et al' sstudy used the sambo turnaments to idetify and quantify the vulnabilities of these cadetes and LEO's. Therefore in the second paper it has been evidenced that not only in some grappling turnaments the high level ground fight is an advantage for grappling athleates but also that the sporting sphere can be used to improve the hand to hand combat system as it has already been used by russian and american military and LEO.

 

[Buka]

Oh so the people who actually attend the course have a say in how it is run?

Not the instructors.

And the new people that walk into your training club have a say in how it's run?

 

[drop bear]

And the new people that walk into your training club have a say in how it's run?

If they have the experience that we don't. Of course.

And we bring in people with experience to change the way we are run.

 

[drop bear]

Even if the industry training was always good, you'd still find folks training outside it. Why? Because the standard, required training is too short. That's not a failing of the training, though.

Have you ever found industry training any good? In any industry? I will have to print my balloon inflating qualification. As a prime example. And I am sure the person who came up with that one thinks they are saving lives or something.

And if the required training is too short. That is the fault of the training. That is the time someone decided it takes to safely prepare a person to engage in that activity.

Look it doesn't matter. You have to do it. And have to do it the way it is presented. Nobody really has a choice. So it is academic as to whether it is good or bad.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you ever found industry training any good? In any industry? I will have to print my balloon inflating qualification. As a prime example. And I am sure the person who came up with that one thinks they are saving lives or something.

And if the required training is too short. That is the fault of the training. That is the time someone decided it takes to safely prepare a person to engage in that activity.

Look it doesn't matter. You have to do it. And have to do it the way it is presented. Nobody really has a choice. So it is academic as to whether it is good or bad.

Training being too short is rarely the fault of training. Someone else (in the case of LEO training, the taxpayer) isn't willing to spend the money. For industry LEO training to be as good as BJJ training, it would have to include paying officers for at least twice-a-week training. That'd be awesome, but pretty expensive. It's like comparing a management training seminar I deliver to my management coaching. The latter will always produce better results (excepting the uncooperative person who refuses to learn and grow), though it's the same person delivering the same principles in both cases. It's not my "fault" the workshop is too short to produce the results of the coaching.

And I'm not sure I see the same distinction you do between "industry" training and other training. Often, outside training is brought inside because it's found (or believed) to be effective. It then becomes part of "industry" training.

 

[evan.fedora]

Any Thoughts about Aikido?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Any Thoughts about Aikido?

As it is most often taught, I don't think it's a good art to start with as a foundation for any application outside the dojo. I think it's a very nice "finishing school" (someone else here on MT used that term) for someone who already has a solid foundation, and some of the principles work quite nicely for restraint.

 

[FriedRice]

Any Thoughts about Aikido?

Law Enforcement is probably 1 of the very few places where Aikido works good in. Because lets face it, when a Cop is in the process of restraining someone with an Aikido wrist lock.....most people will rarely punch the Cop in the face....then follow up with a sweet *** combo, ending with a knee to the head KO once the Cop's slumped over...then run away....because now, a crapload of felony charges has been recorded on dashcam + the wrath of every Police Dept. within 1000 mile radius will be out looking for this guy.

Or hey, after getting punched in the face once, the Cop can let go of the wrist lock that rarely works IRL and just shoot the guy; as he's carrying **** that are way better than any chopsocky. Aikido by Joe Blow in a bar, prob. = getting punched in the face.

What's good about Aikido for Cops is that it leaves less marks for the Public Def. to talk about.... as compared to, ie. BJJ where a takedown is probably needed with the Perp crashing hard into the cement, maybe more than twice. And certainly a lot lesser marks than Boxing.

 

[drop bear]

Law Enforcement is probably 1 of the very few places where Aikido works good in. Because lets face it, when a Cop is in the process of restraining someone with an Aikido wrist lock.....most people will rarely punch the Cop in the face....then follow up with a sweet *** combo, ending with a knee to the head KO once the Cop's slumped over...then run away....because now, a crapload of felony charges has been recorded on dashcam + the wrath of every Police Dept. within 1000 mile radius will be out looking for this guy.

Or hey, after getting punched in the face once, the Cop can let go of the wrist lock that rarely works IRL and just shoot the guy; as he's carrying **** that are way better than any chopsocky. Aikido by Joe Blow in a bar, prob. = getting punched in the face.

What's good about Aikido for Cops is that it leaves less marks for the Public Def. to talk about.... as compared to, ie. BJJ where a takedown is probably needed with the Perp crashing hard into the cement, maybe more than twice. And certainly a lot lesser marks than Boxing.

Not really the way you want to go about doing wrist locks. If they can punch you and then you have to shoot them. In theory wrist locks should be about shutting off peoples ability to attack you.

And yes most people approach wrist locks with a punch me invitation.

And yes they are sold as something that will work a lot better than they do.

And yes even done well they are hard to pull off.

But you can raise your odds if you change your order of priorities And approach the standing submission a bit differently.

Now with wrestling especially and BJJ sort of. The standing control work that sets up takedowns also sets up standing restraints. Which gives you more opportunity to hit those wrist locks more safely but also leaves that takedown option or reposition if you don't get the lock.

Which is the method BJJ made famous with their idea of "position before submission"

There are also numbers advantages. But that is another dynamic again.

But yeah. When you go do a course and the instructor thinks it is a case of saying "look a distraction" and then trapping and slapping on a goose neck. You are doing it wrong.

 

[punisher73]

Dear punisher123

Except those techniques that are already forbidden by modality rules in high level for their high idexes of injuries, the allowed ones if applied in moderated way have low harmufulness. Obviously it requires control in dosing the force applied in the blow execution, but as an advantage of BJJ that enables sparrings at high intensity it comes naturally with practice. If you become able to applied a hold or submission in a training partner without hurt him capting the time of his tapping you'll able to apply a submission to the opponent on the street. Jiu Jitsu is soft art but it requires hard training, good attendence like all sports. However, in terms of time of practice to reach this science of control the intensity of the blows and having a global vision of bjj as software art it take more time as the witness of majority athletes of MMA.

Regarding the paper, a depper reading could bring a better understanding. The main point of the Blanton' paper is the comparison of the Mordern America Combatives with other hand to hand system.
He pointed out that BJJ is the main surce of AC whose dynamic is orientated to the ground finght. Besides, according the official doccument 'strinking is not an efficient way to incapacite the enemy' and 'chokes was the best way to ending a fight'. Take a deeper reading. Osipov pointed out the main vulnerabilities presented by LEO were attacks from the ground so he suggeat the revision of teaching methods. Blanton remarked that main focus of Sambo is take downs techiques. The Osipov et al' sstudy used the sambo turnaments to idetify and quantify the vulnabilities of these cadetes and LEO's. Therefore in the second paper it has been evidenced that not only in some grappling turnaments the high level ground fight is an advantage for grappling athleates but also that the sporting sphere can be used to improve the hand to hand combat system as it has already been used by russian and american military and LEO.

That is the main problem right there in bold. Throw in the attacker is usually drunk, high or mental and they aren't tapping. They aren't even going to know what tapping is. You now have three choices in regards to the submission. 1) Keep holding on to it and continue to be at a tactical disadvantage or hope back up is there. 2) Damage the limb as the submission was designed to do. 3) Let go/transition into something else. BJJ can be a great tool for an officer when it is understood and applied correctly. But, the way it is being taught and trained isn't the way to do it in most cases.

 

[CoachRonald]

That is the main problem right there in bold. Throw in the attacker is usually drunk, high or mental and they aren't tapping. They aren't even going to know what tapping is. You now have three choices in regards to the submission. 1) Keep holding on to it and continue to be at a tactical disadvantage or hope back up is there. 2) Damage the limb as the submission was designed to do. 3) Let go/transition into something else. BJJ can be a great tool for an officer when it is understood and applied correctly. But, the way it is being taught and trained isn't the way to do it in most cases.

Regarding the probability of the opponent gives in and accepts the arrestement, indeed it's not really expected that he taps so an even more acccurated reflex is required to applying the submissions/holds without either suffering the implications of getting hurt by him or being charged latter. No doubt that there are many methodological failures that can be verified in Jiu Jitsu schools, even in the old ones, so it's really need to adapt the training system for the combat reality on the streets, as it's been done by one of the corporations mentioned above.

 

[FriedRice]

Not really the way you want to go about doing wrist locks. If they can punch you and then you have to shoot them. In theory wrist locks should be about shutting off peoples ability to attack you.

Only when it's near locked in though. There is time to throw a punch or more than 1, as the wrist lock is being attempted. And if the Perp is fully resisting, then there's def. a lot of opportunities for the Perp to throw punches, knees, elbows, etc. which is why trying to grab some guy's wrist while he's swinging, is rarely attainable.

Even with a locked in wrist-lock, someone bigger and stronger can power out of it or even take the pain, or both and continue attacking.

I've tapped to wrist-locks before, but it was always during Jitsu sparring only and not a full MMA fight and/or street fight, so I didn't have the option of striking with my hands and/or leg while being wrist-locked, so there is a certain level of uncertainty + pain, should it does happen.

The thing with Cops though is that a wrist-lock is usually the beginning of their escalation of force. They're holding the WL to get cuffs on. They're not just going to WL to set up for an immediate hip throw....which will slam the Perp onto the cement and pretty sure, will break his wrist; among other body parts. The reason that they're able get hold of the wrist in the 1st place, usually, is b/c the Perp is only, lightly resisting.

 

[FriedRice]

That is the main problem right there in bold. Throw in the attacker is usually drunk, high or mental and they aren't tapping. They aren't even going to know what tapping is. You now have three choices in regards to the submission. 1) Keep holding on to it and continue to be at a tactical disadvantage or hope back up is there. 2) Damage the limb as the submission was designed to do. 3) Let go/transition into something else. BJJ can be a great tool for an officer when it is understood and applied correctly. But, the way it is being taught and trained isn't the way to do it in most cases.

These are good points. It probably just depends on the scenario. If it was a lone cop vs 1 lone perp in the middle of nowhere w/no one else around, then a BJJ Blue Belt cop shouldn't have much problems controlling the Perp with BJJ for many rounds before backup arrives. Now if it's the Cop, the Perp + 5 bystanders who may or may not be pro police, then going to the ground is not a good idea.

The weakness of most BJJ gyms is that they're geared mostly towards Sports BJJ, to win tournaments and bringing home medals for gym bragging rights + marketing/promoting. But it still does turns some guy who's training for medals, to be very good at grappling, especially vs. an average guy on the street.

A Cop training Sports BJJ for a year, 3x a week, will be miles and miles better than one that only gets training from their Dept. .....and both are getting this departmental training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really the way you want to go about doing wrist locks. If they can punch you and then you have to shoot them. In theory wrist locks should be about shutting off peoples ability to attack you.

And yes most people approach wrist locks with a punch me invitation.

And yes they are sold as something that will work a lot better than they do.

And yes even done well they are hard to pull off.

But you can raise your odds if you change your order of priorities And approach the standing submission a bit differently.

Now with wrestling especially and BJJ sort of. The standing control work that sets up takedowns also sets up standing restraints. Which gives you more opportunity to hit those wrist locks more safely but also leaves that takedown option or reposition if you don't get the lock.

Which is the method BJJ made famous with their idea of "position before submission"

There are also numbers advantages. But that is another dynamic again.

But yeah. When you go do a course and the instructor thinks it is a case of saying "look a distraction" and then trapping and slapping on a goose neck. You are doing it wrong.

Someday I’m stealing that BJJ phrasing. I follow the same principle (the position/control is more important than the finishing technique), and agree that’s key to a lot of standing grappling becoming useful. I would rather see a failed technique that protected position or broke structure than a “successful” one that didn’t.

 

[drop bear]

Only when it's near locked in though. There is time to throw a punch or more than 1, as the wrist lock is being attempted. And if the Perp is fully resisting, then there's def. a lot of opportunities for the Perp to throw punches, knees, elbows, etc. which is why trying to grab some guy's wrist while he's swinging, is rarely attainable.

Even with a locked in wrist-lock, someone bigger and stronger can power out of it or even take the pain, or both and continue attacking.

I've tapped to wrist-locks before, but it was always during Jitsu sparring only and not a full MMA fight and/or street fight, so I didn't have the option of striking with my hands and/or leg while being wrist-locked, so there is a certain level of uncertainty + pain, should it does happen.

The thing with Cops though is that a wrist-lock is usually the beginning of their escalation of force. They're holding the WL to get cuffs on. They're not just going to WL to set up for an immediate hip throw....which will slam the Perp onto the cement and pretty sure, will break his wrist; among other body parts. The reason that they're able get hold of the wrist in the 1st place, usually, is b/c the Perp is only, lightly resisting.

Because people go backwards for wrist locks. If a person is actually fighting you. You don't grab the wrist.

Secure the head and get the underhook, create an angle, break their posture, straighten out their arm and take the wrist from there.

All the time you make sure your head is angled so you can use it to wrestle and reduce their ability to hit it.

Otherwise wrist lock positions are essentially arm drags. And arm drags let you take someones back. So if they power out of the wrist lock you take their back and can hang out there pretty safely. If they turn back in double leg them in to the deck and fight on with a bit of gravity. Knee ride, arm bar, wrist lock stand them back up if you want.

 

[FriedRice]

Because people go backwards for wrist locks. If a person is actually fighting you. You don't grab the wrist.

Secure the head and get the underhook, create an angle, break their posture, straighten out their arm and take the wrist from there.

All the time you make sure your head is angled so you can use it to wrestle and reduce their ability to hit it.

Otherwise wrist lock positions are essentially arm drags. And arm drags let you take someones back. So if they power out of the wrist lock you take their back and can hang out there pretty safely. If they turn back in double leg them in to the deck and fight on with a bit of gravity. Knee ride, arm bar, wrist lock stand them back up if you want.

I was referring more towards a Cop's perspective in putting on a wrist lock. I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them.....as they're sneaking in that wrist lock slowly in order to slap the cuffs on. I don't think I ever saw them just shoot for the wrist when the Perp is using a lot of force to resist. They'd grapple, control in dominant position, then wrist lock...so basically we agree.

While standing wrist locks, often taught by SD schools, are usually BS. They usually require that the other guy give them his wrist or grab the SD Instructor's wrist = a mistake, which is usually what's required to pull of a WL.

 

[CB Jones]

I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them..

That's called the compliant escort position and its one of the main foundations of Defensive Tactics. It is supposed to put you in position to perform an arm bar takedown into a prone cuffing position if they resist.