That said, I would bet the same thing for judo and wrestling. IMO the reason for that consistency is the continuous testing from competition, which is just as popular for judo and wrestling.
Why should law enforcement officers train BJJ?
- Thread starter CoachRonald
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CB Jones
Senior Master
IMO, LEOs have their defensive tactics which should be their primary system due to it being supported by departmental P&P and is developed with firearm retention and handcuffing position in mind.
But
Both JJ and Other grappling and striking systems are beneficial to learn for when those tactics break down. Also, so that LEOs can recognize and understand tactics being used against them.
Just more tools for your toolbox.
But
Both JJ and Other grappling and striking systems are beneficial to learn for when those tactics break down. Also, so that LEOs can recognize and understand tactics being used against them.
Just more tools for your toolbox.
JR 137
Grandmaster
And to keep you sharp. How often is DT training conducted? Not nearly as much as one could get into the dojo.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not as prolific here by the way.
While lots of the technical issues have been brought up by others, I'm seeing a major fallacy here. When we look at military hand-to-hand training and compare it to law enforcement -- the comparison doesn't work. In brief (we've discussed this at length in many threads...), military H2H exists for 2 primary purposes: developing esprit/warrior courage/fighting mindset, and to provide options in the rare instance where everything has gone wrong and the soldier is unarmed. Law enforcement hands-on skills are essential and will be used and tested, almost routinely. Soldiers start with guns, and go unarmed only if necessary; cops generally start with hands-on and escalate as needed. That's why cops carry less-lethal options (batons, OC, Taser) while few soldiers really do. There's been a minor change in the recent past, as soldiers in peacekeeping roles find themselves in more police-like activities -- but it's far from a complete mindset.
BJJ has a lot of good things, and one thing that I will give the Gracie's a ton of credit for is that they are willing to listen and adjust, almost on the fly. (There's a story that one of them was demonstrating something, and a cop pointed out it doesn't work with a real gunbelt on -- so they got a gunbelt, tried it, discovered they couldn't move that way, and adjusted what they were teaching the next day.) But so do many other options, including completely art-independent approaches. The reality is that when you develop a DT program, you have to keep in mind the reality that cops have limited training time, seldom spend a lot of time reinforcing DT skills, so the skills taught have to be able to be learned quickly, meet liability concerns as well as safety issues on both sides, be able to escalate or de-escalate force options as needed, and be remembered for years with little practice... It's a tall order.
BJJ has a lot of good things, and one thing that I will give the Gracie's a ton of credit for is that they are willing to listen and adjust, almost on the fly. (There's a story that one of them was demonstrating something, and a cop pointed out it doesn't work with a real gunbelt on -- so they got a gunbelt, tried it, discovered they couldn't move that way, and adjusted what they were teaching the next day.) But so do many other options, including completely art-independent approaches. The reality is that when you develop a DT program, you have to keep in mind the reality that cops have limited training time, seldom spend a lot of time reinforcing DT skills, so the skills taught have to be able to be learned quickly, meet liability concerns as well as safety issues on both sides, be able to escalate or de-escalate force options as needed, and be remembered for years with little practice... It's a tall order.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Depends if defensive tactics actually works though. Which it doesn't have to. Because you have to do it regardless. And the people who assess the course are the people who teach the course.
Sorry still not a fan.
Oh? Is competition not as common in Judo and wrestling there? That's unexpected.
CB Jones
Senior Master
Well...They are used everyday all over the country and have proven to work for the majority of hands on work.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Nah. All BJJ pretty much. And most of the industry guys BJJ as well. And that is mostly because it is there. so that becomes their point of reference. The BJJ guys can wrap dudes up in real time so everyone just does BJJ.
And You can take your rankings to other schools. Which helps here due to police getting transfered all over the state.
So, Judo and wrestling just aren't very common there, at all?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
According to the industry trainers who asses such things. And how do they asses these things? Well they ask the experts. Who just happen to be industry trainers. Who agree that the system is proven to work.
Mate I did PPCT. Tried it on real live people. It didn't work.
The next course. (forced by the way. not my choice) got canned by my instructor. Who had less martial arts experience and less time in the job. About my lack of cares given about the whole shambling mess that was the course.
And his response was the industry standard. That using the system with your head on the line does not qualify someone to have an opinion on that system. Only being an instructor in that system would allow someone to be able to judge if the system actually works.
And of course it was proven effective every day by thousands of people that were not here at the moment. In incidents that were not in evidence anywhere. And if I wanted to pass the course and therefore keep my licence I had better just shut up about it.
So I did. And gritted my teeth through the shambles. And then went out on my own volition and trained in a system that might actually give me some results.
Which is why we have 4 cops training BJJ and wrestling with us. And not doing the industry standard.
Which is why police around the world go on their own time to these external classes.
Now this is not saying an industry standard training can't be any good. But I would not expect it to be good.
All of this is not my problem to fix. And it is not only my opinion. This is what I hear as standard. And If the game of defensive tactics isn't well regarded. Then it is the job of defensive tactics to either sepparate themselves as a cut above the average. Or live with the fact that it is a course designed to pass a certificate in order to mitigate liability. Not a course designed to pass on practical knowledge.
And while I am on a rant here. Can I point out I did a certificate of instruction the other day on how to blow up a baloon. Yeah. Industry training.
High levels of dissatisfaction.
EmeraldInsight
Victorian police don't like theirs.
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Industry experts say suck it up buttercup.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
We dont do it in school. We play football instead. And swim.
CB Jones
Senior Master
@drop bear
You still have to have a standardized basic DT system for liability reasons and basic training. Handcuffing techniques, Search and Pat down techniques, escort positions, basic takedowns techniques, etc... The majority of times when hands need to be placed on someone...Basic Defensive Tactics are sufficient and also provides protection from civil suits.
I agree the BJJ is good for when those tactics aren't enough.....but typically for liability reasons its good to use your basic certified Defensive tactics if you can.
You still have to have a standardized basic DT system for liability reasons and basic training. Handcuffing techniques, Search and Pat down techniques, escort positions, basic takedowns techniques, etc... The majority of times when hands need to be placed on someone...Basic Defensive Tactics are sufficient and also provides protection from civil suits.
I agree the BJJ is good for when those tactics aren't enough.....but typically for liability reasons its good to use your basic certified Defensive tactics if you can.
One downside to wrestling is that it isnāt readily available in its purest form to adult hobbyists in most places. The vast majority of wrestling is done by kids in school, with the higher levels (collegiate or international competition) available to people who grew up wrestling in school.
Thanks to the popularity of MMA, you can now often find wrestling classes in MMA gyms (and sometimes BJJ academies), but it tends to be a subset of the art relevant to a MMA/BJJ context.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Wrestling is a lot harder to do as an adult, even in the USA. While every high school and middle school has a wrestling team, I canāt think of one wrestling club for adults. BJJ is all over the place, and Judo isnāt too hard to find.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
If I had read to the end, I would have been able to save myself a post.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
For liability reasons it is better to be heroically hurt. Than to hurt someone else or just have the right set up in the first place. Because it is generally cheaper.
Dude, what? The people who assess the course....WTF are you talking about? We're talking people's lives here, working the streets. Those are the people assessing.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Oh so the people who actually attend the course have a say in how it is run?
Not the instructors.
punisher73
Senior Master
In the case of PPCT, "yes". The go by field experience of what officers are using or not using and what isn't working properly and take it out or adjust it.
What didn't work for you in PPCT? I have trouble believing that punching or heel palming them to the face or solar plexus and a muay thai style roundhouse kick don't work. How do elbows not work? How does the front push kick from Muay Thai not work? Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (Sleeper hold)? I will admit that if all you were taught was pressure points, then most times it doesn't and wasn't designed to work outside of a non-combative person.
That being said, I wouldn't say that it is "complete" by any means. But, it gives a good solid base to start from if officers actually practice and develop their skills with it.
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