Why Perfect Kata Is a Dead End

[JowGaWolf]

if you're playing Bach, you're supposed to play it exact every time.

The thing about Mastery of an Art or even a Fighting system is that Mastery is the exact opposite of "Playing the music exactly as he wrote it." By default, you cannot master a skill without evolving. Even Bach didn't always play exactly as he wrote it. Word on the street has it that Bach was known for his improvisational skills and creativity. If someone describes you like this then you probably aren't lack the desire to do something exactly the same everytime.

If you are playing Bach and wanted to know how Bach Played the music then you play it exactly as he wrote it. But there are examples of Bach being played differently than he wrote it.
Example:
MC Fioti: His hit "Bum Bum Tam Tam" samples Bach's Partita in A minor for solo flute.

Eminem: In his song "Brainless," you can hear the fugue subject from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor.

Busdriver: His track "Imaginary Places" samples Bach's Minuet and Badinerie from Orchestral Suite No. 2 in B.

The value of Bach is not that you "Play it the exactly every time." The value is that his music is still relevant today and this is how one's Martial Arts should be throughout time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The thing about Mastery of an Art or even a Fighting system is that Mastery is the exact opposite of "Playing the music exactly as he wrote it." By default, you cannot master a skill without evolving. Even Bach didn't always play exactly as he wrote it. Word on the street has it that Bach was known for his improvisational skills and creativity. If someone describes you like this then you probably aren't lack the desire to do something exactly the same everytime.

If you are playing Bach and wanted to know how Bach Played the music then you play it exactly as he wrote it. But there are examples of Bach being played differently than he wrote it.
Example:
MC Fioti: His hit "Bum Bum Tam Tam" samples Bach's Partita in A minor for solo flute.

Eminem: In his song "Brainless," you can hear the fugue subject from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor.

Busdriver: His track "Imaginary Places" samples Bach's Minuet and Badinerie from Orchestral Suite No. 2 in B.

The value of Bach is not that you "Play it the exactly every time." The value is that his music is still relevant today and this is how one's Martial Arts should be throughout time.

Learning how to play Bach and learning how to do Kata have the same function in terms of development. Both provide a good foundation to build off of.

 

[drop bear]

I still go the other way. In that Kata doesn't have to reflect fighting. It just has to be hard enough and complicated enough to force you to take control of your body. Like acrobatics or ballet or knees over toes and stuff like that.

So yeah. You could be doing kata better. But it would be about making the movements harder or over a wider range of movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So much care must be given to any changes one makes in executing kata.

Today, when I did my 4 miles walking/training, I did the following combo 220 times.

- right low hook,
- right middle hook,
- right high hook,
- repeat on the left side.

This combo exists in the advance praying mantis form 摘要 Zhai Yao. It's a such good exercise that anybody can do when he walks. If this combo doesn't exist in your system, it's a good idea that you add it into one of your forms.

 

[windwalker099]

another way of looking at it..

" It is a common adage in internal arts
That movement is used to only achieve the concept of having no particular skill that any movement is skill. The practitioner uses form as a tool to train the mind and body to realize this concept."

Expressed as "formless form" or "form without form" 無形 (Wú Xíng)

If you are playing Bach and wanted to know how Bach Played the music then you play it exactly as he wrote it. But there are examples of Bach being played differently than he wrote it.

Think of it as, if someone can play Bach's music so well that it is immediately recognized.
In that moment, they embody 'Bach'—there is no separation between the musician and the music.
They are 'Bach,' and 'Bach' is them. (Wu Wei) 無為

 

[skribs]

I wonder how Bach would feel about this (I really have no idea). Perhaps this expectation only evolved over time.

Dolly Parton wrote I Will Always Love You and sang it tenderly, personal and intimate (though she rarely sang it the same way twice as her mood led her - and I think this can be applied to kata for the advanced practitioner). Whitney Houston's version was much more dynamic, highlighting her superior vocal skills. She didn't change the words, meaning or melody, but the song was nevertheless transformed, emotionally different. You can say they have different bunkai. Both are great to listen to. Most of the time (with some exceptions such as Jimi Hendix's version of Bob Dylan's All Along the Watchtower) the remake falls far short of the original, IMO.

TMA is different as changes in delivery can have a huge effect on its (self-defense) effectiveness resulting in great harm. So much care must be given to any changes one makes in executing kata. This is of little consequence in competition as long as its appearance conforms with the judges' expectation.

Not trying to make any specific point here other than variations in kata can reflect one's inner self or go to the extent of changing its self-defense effectiveness. A degree of expertness is needed to know the difference.

I do agree with the overall idea of this post. It's why my curriculum is moving away from my Master's curriculum. His curriculum is very much: you passed your test, now here's your next form (or 2), your next 3-5 each of punch combos, kick combos, punch defense, grab defense, kick defense, etc. My curriculum is akin to the pirate's code: it's more a set of guidelines.

I also feel (as I probably espoused in the recent threads regarding advanced kata) that after a point, you hit diminishing returns. In most TKD schools, there's new forms for every degree of black belt. Most of those I don't feel offer much except for the ceremony of performing them. There might be some new techniques here or there, but it's mostly variations of movements the practitioner has already learned, and concepts they've already developed in their training up to that point. Which is part of why I'm designing my curriculum with a "black belt form" and then I'm going to expect students to get creative, instead of a new form every degree.

I feel like using copy pasta rote memorization is a great learning tool for those at an intermediate level (i.e. advanced colored belts and early black belts), but I feel the value greatly diminishes once you're at a point where you "know all the moves". In BJJ, it's common to say that at white and blue belt, you're learning techniques, but at some point you need to start learning concepts. I see that in my own rolls, where I will take part of one technique and part of another and combine them into something new. (At least, new to me). For example, I was taught a lapel wrap to make the loop choke tighter, and I applied that concept to make my cross-collar chokes tighter.

In terms of Taekwondo and my experience with it, forms practice is a useful tool for body mechanics and meditation. In terms of how I think Karate uses it, I think the forms serve as a basis for bunkai, which is where ultimately the training should focus if you want to reach higher levels past the "perfect kata".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Think of it as, if someone can play Bach's music so well that it is immediately recognized.
In that moment, they embody 'Bach'—there is no separation between the musician and the music.
They are 'Bach,' and 'Bach' is them. (Wu Wei) 無為

I don't like that perspective because it doesn't make sense to me. Trying to embody a musician who was known for his improvisation by trying to copy exactly as he played is the opposite of improvisation. To do this would be a failure. Even his students created their own music that sounded different from Bach's

I also don't like this type of perspective for martial arts. I don't know of any martial artist that teaches students with the hopes that the student will be the same as them. Most teachers teach with the perspective that their students should be better than they are.

Besides. I believe (Wu Wei) 無為 was talking about there being no separation between one's self and the action that one took. To me this sounds more like reaching that harmonious state when the action becomes an extension of oneself where everything flowed perfectly. Similar to "being in the zone," and as a result the actions become effortless. This is only possible by being in tune with your body and self and not trying to be like someone who existed hundreds of years ago.

I will never be as Bach because I am not Bach (Jow Ga Wolf). No matter how well I play Bach, I am not Bach.

No matter How well I do a Kata, I am not the founder of the kata.

 

[windwalker099]

I also don't like this type of perspective for martial arts. I don't know of any martial artist that teaches students with the hopes that the student will be the same as them. Most teachers teach with the perspective that their students should be better than they are.

True, but first they must reach a point of having the same understanding demonstrated through the skill being taught.
In this sense it's really not about the "kata"

Lets look at another example

"The right art ", cried the Master, `is purposeless, aimless!
The more obstinately you try to learn how to shoot the arrow for the sake of hitting the goal, the less you will succeed in the one and the further the other will recede."

To be better then the master, not the point. The point to reach the same understanding, through ever medium is used to convey it.



Some one playing "Bach" for example, could be technically, very skilled, but still not have captured the same spirit and energy that others others who know look for in understanding the level of the player...

 

[JowGaWolf]

True, but first they must reach a point of having the same understanding demonstrated through the skill being taught.
In this sense it's really not about the "kata"

I agree with this. This would be the foundation that one must learn. I cannot grow from Bach unless I am able to play Bach.

I cannot grow from kata unless I train kata. Kata cannot grow unless the foundation of application exists. If there is no application, then there is no kata.

I do not want to want to be like the founder of Jow Ga, but I would like to have his foundation and understanding as the starting point for my Jow Ga Foundation. This is why I tell people that they will learn how to use Jow ga faster than I did. Because they are not starting at the foundation I started with. I add to where I started and make that their starting point, which in reality is the starting point I wish I had.

The point is not to be better then the master, but to reach the same understanding using what ever medium is used to convey it.

This should be the teacher's goal. A student who has reached mastery that knows less than the teacher is death for that system or art of study. Here's proof.

1. If I teach you and you know less at mastery than me then you cannot provide growth to what I taught.

2. If you teach a student and they know less than you at mastery then your student cannot provide growth to what you taught nor can they provide growth to what I tought.

Continue this pattern and the system will eventually be useless. So while the student is only trying to be on the same level as the teacher. It is the teacher's responsibility to teach in a way that allows them to excel beyond them. Think of it like a boxing coach who used to box. Does that coach want his fighter to be equal or better than he was?

The reason we want to learn from people with good experience is because it means that our starting foundation will be at a higher level than if it was with someone else.

Learn Jow Ga from me and you'll have a higher foundation and starting point than you would if you learn Jow Ga from someone who doesn't know how to apply it.

It is difficult for me to learn how to play the piano from someone who doesn't know how to play it that well.

It is difficult for me to learn how to fight using Jow Ga from someone who doesn't know how to use Jow Ga that well.

 

[marvin8]

For those of us in TMA, kata is usually seen as an exercise in perfection - a striving for precision in angles, stance, position and execution. This develops a mastery of physical control over one's movement that can be consistent for every repetition of the kata. It takes years to accomplish, even for a single kata, but once achieved we feel that an ideal has been reached. This "ideal" kata allows us to pass belt tests and win medals in kata competition. So far, so good, until the point when it's not. There comes a time when this road to the perfect kata leads to a dead end.

The first problem is the setting of parameters by which kata is judged. Specific parameters are artificially set by an organization or have been passed down thru the decades, or just by a general acceptance of what looks good; "This is how the kata is supposed to be done." Many times, these parameters are at odds with effective bunkai, form over function being the sin of some modern TMA styles/schools (as commonly taught) and practically all competition. But this topic has already been much discussed and not the subject here.

However, if kata is viewed as one of 3 components of karate training with the goal of making oneself a better MAist/fighter, it may not be considered a dead end. Because, anything not trained in kata can be covered in kihon or kumite.

The second problem is that the concept of the "ideal" or "right" way leads to the cessation of development. Afterall, once you've "got it," why fool with it anymore? You're doing it the way you're supposed to. And you keep doing it that way thru 2nd degree, 3rd, 4th, 5th degree........You've reached a dead end. If DNA was replicated exactly the same way every time, there would be no evolution. It's the tiny mutations that lead to new things. I'm not advocating changing the kata - not what's being done, just how.

Talented singers and stage actors will not perform exactly the same way every time. A nuanced gesture, a voice inflection, or adlibbed line will diverge from the written script from time to time. I think that as one progresses into the dan ranks (lower belts, stick to the script!) it's time to feel less constrained by what's considered to be "perfect" kata form. Relax and let those mutations occur: A difference in timing/rhythm, exact angle of foot or arm, the bend of the knee, the gestalt of your body movement. Like any mutation, some are bad and detract from combat ability, some are good and improve effectiveness, and some don't really matter but may just make you feel more "natural," allowing you to be more "you." Now you're becoming a martial artist.

Junior Lefevre (trainer of Rafael Aghayev) teaches timing, rhythm and footwork in kumite to enter the fight zone safely, which may not be covered in kata.

 

[windwalker099]

1. If I teach you and you know less at mastery than me then you cannot provide growth to what I taught.

2. If you teach a student and they know less than you at mastery then your student cannot provide growth to what you taught nor can they provide growth to what I tought.

Continue this pattern and the system will eventually be useless. So while the student is only trying to be on the same level as the teacher. It is the teacher's responsibility to teach in a way that allows them to excel beyond them.

Feel we are discussion different aspects.

For those I work with...I have no goal for them.
They are seekers, I help them to find their own path
by sharing mine.

Providing an example of what "it" is, helping them to understand what "it" is not
It is said a guide can only lead one to the door; the door one must walk through on their own.

Sometimes referred to as the "gateless gate"

One must have inner clarity, consciously or unconsciously,
eventually leads them to the door they seek.

For me, a "master" represents the example of something that cannot be taught.
The medium presented by the "example" varies according to the seeker's nature.

It may be something that one is not even aware of.
When the right "example" is found, it tends to be followed in what ever medium it's presented through
by those who come in contact with it.

A Japanese Story: The Samurai and the Tea Master pdf

 

[isshinryuronin]

I would argue that very, very few people will get to the point where they have a "perfect" TMA kata.

No argument here. The point is, once someone passes a blackbelt test or wins a kata competition they think they have it down well enough, pretty close to perfect. They have achieved "how the kata is supposed to look" and so stop working it. But there is much more to a kata than the artificially mandated look.

 

[Haruhiko]

There comes a time when this road to the perfect kata leads to a dead end.

As far as I understand, at least when it comes to koryū, you will never be at a point where you feel like you have perfected any kata.

Specific parameters are artificially set by an organization

That's what happens when kata are judged or graded - there needs to be boxes to be checked. Poomsae competition in TKD is an example of this. Is it still a TMA when modern organisations set these standards?

The second problem is that the concept of the "ideal" or "right" way leads to the cessation of development. Afterall, once you've "got it," why fool with it anymore?

Let's take the roundhouse kick in TKD as an example. I mastered it, and could not at all develop it any further other than it being stronger.

But in TMAs I feel it's very different. There's a larger focus on intent, embodying the school's philosophy, and approach to a lifelong study of the kata. I don't know if anyone can claim to master that.

argue that very, very few people will get to the point where they have a "perfect" TMA kata. This is like saying it's virtually pointless earning money after becoming a millionaire.

But it also doesn't necessarily have to be more than that. It's a goal that, once achieved, you can move on to other things. Or perfect new kata. Or maintain the ones you have.

Revisiting the first sets in the koryū I study reminds me of the fundamentals that necessitate properly performing the other kata. It's a journey with no destination in my view. There are destinations, like pit stops and "ah ha!" moments, but I don't think there's a finish line.

if you're playing Bach, you're supposed to play it exact every time.

We might disagree here. Bach should be playing it exactly the same every time (maybe), but there are so many ways to play Bach that makes people listen to different composers despite composing from the same sheet notation.

I don't think kata have a dead end especially in koryū. But individual techniques and movements within the kata might.