Shu Ha Ri

[SahBumNimRush]

What should be B's respond in the following Q&A?

A: Does your style have roundhouse kick?
B: We don have it in our forms, But we have it in our training.
A: Why didn't your form creator put it into your form?
B: ...

Forms (kata) were designed for self-defense. Roundhouse kicks are best utilized in mutually consented combat or sport, and therefore has less utility in close quarter self-defense situations. We practice roundhouse kicks in exercises that fit its utility better than forms practice. Furthermore, our forms are older than the roundhouse kick is. The kick evolved as a sport combat kick, as I understand it.

 

[J. Pickard]

Forms (kata) were designed for self-defense. Roundhouse kicks are best utilized in mutually consented combat or sport, and therefore has less utility in close quarter self-defense situations. We practice roundhouse kicks in exercises that fit its utility better than forms practice. Furthermore, our forms are older than the roundhouse kick is. The kick evolved as a sport combat kick, as I understand it.

Interesting thought about mutual combat. However, I think roundhouse (at least leg level) has been around longer than competition though in certain styles. Savate is [supposedly] a modern take on french street fighting and utilized heavy shoes with low round kicks to try to break bone. There is also muay thai leg kicks that go pretty far back in history. I

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Interesting thought about mutual combat. However, I think roundhouse (at least leg level) has been around longer than competition though in certain styles. Savate is [supposedly] a modern take on french street fighting and utilized heavy shoes with low round kicks to try to break bone. There is also muay thai leg kicks that go pretty far back in history. I

I'll concede I don't have any firm evidence on sport evolution of the kick outside of some discussion and theory. But even with the instances you mentioned, they seem consensual fighting vs. self-defense oriented. I love roundhouse kicks in sparring, but I honestly don't use them much in my self-defense training, which does predominantly come from my forms practice.

 

[Dirty Dog]

But you still have not explained why your form creator didn't include roundhouse kick into the form that he created.

Forms are a teaching tool. The key point of that sentence is the letter "A". They are not the only teaching tool, and there is no reason to think that you cannot learn or use a skill without that skill being in your forms.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm still seeing this:
1) only experts should modify forms.
2) I am an expert.

The hubris is so thick in here. I don't claim mastery. I don't think many people can. I think a lot of people have difficulty accepting that they ain't all that.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't like these "KATA???" debates at all, but ittakes more than 2 to tango. It also takes learning a special kata.

Could you change it? Sure, why not. Just not so much that it starts to resemble the Waltz.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Assuming a wrestler would make a kata at all, then I guess because he wanted to. Perhaps the kata focuses on techniques and strategies other than these takedowns. Reasons could be limitless. Maybe just to prove to you that he can.

Wrestlers use all sorts of kata. They just don't call it that (well some do, if they research their arts back far enough there's usually a kata somewhere there).

You can't learn a takedown without learning the sequence first, and grappler is all sequences and positional dominance.

Like Dirty said, you can't write a single word without learning the alphabet first.

 

[geezer]

Wrestlers use all sorts of kata...

Years back, my son and my nephew learned wrestling from Coach Mu Chang, an outstanding coach and wrestler who earned a silver medal for South Korea in the '68 Olympics. He was also a high level martial artist and besides wrestling, he taught Kuk Sool Won.

When training wrestlers, he would often have them do solo sequences across the floor ...essentially kata, prior to paired practice on the mat. And he got results.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Years back, my son and my nephew learned wrestling from Coach Mu Chang, an outstanding coach and wrestler who earned a silver medal for South Korea in the '68 Olympics. He was also a high level martial artist and besides wrestling, he taught Kuk Sool Won.

When training wrestlers, he would often have them do solo sequences across the floor ...essentially kata, prior to paired practice on the mat. And he got results.

And the funny thing is that once you get semi proficient at any of these sequences...you don't need partner to practice one.

Wrestling coaches I've watched will have people do laps around the gym with all sort of wicked looking movements, and when I say wicked I mean on the knees, man. But how else do you learn to get through that easy part, so you can actually grab someone that way and make it count.

Dragon/Unicorn stepping in Chinese arts is pretty rough on the legs, but it'll build you Adonis-level calves. It isn't like sparring, but it helps.

 

[_Simon_]

I figured I would start a thread here about Shu Ha Ri. Shu Ha Ri, is the Japanese version, but I believe that there are other versions from other places that are very similar. (It would be great to discuss those as well here, to compare the similarities and the differences...)

I see a lot of threads about Kata, and how to understand Kata... and a lot of people that don't really understand what Kata are. Well, at least, what Kata were originally intended to be... Despite what they may have become in some places.

To start out with, the Kata of an art is not a dictionary of moves in the art. More importantly, the Kata is not the art. I see too many people looking at the kata in an art and concluding that because move X is not in one of the Kata, move X is not part of the art and therefore cannot be done by one practicing that art. I see too many people saying that we don't fight like that, so the Kata is useless for martial training.

To understand what Kata is, and what it should be used for... we need to understand where it came from. Kata, is part of the Shu Ha Ri process. (I and others have brought this process up in many threads, but I feel that it needs its own thread) A very simple definition: Shuhari - Wikipedia

A much better discussion of Shu Ha Ri: Teaching and Shu Ha Ri | Kimusubi Aikido Orlando

Simply stated, Shu Ha Ri is a process or method of transmitting Japanese traditions. Martial Arts is just one of the things this process is used for.

Shu Ha Ri has three basic steps: Shu, Ha and Ri.

The first step Shu, is where the Kata come in. Note, learning the Kata is step one. It is step one of a very long process. In Shu, you learn the kata. You learn them exactly, with no variance. You simply copy. From the second article I listed above:

Through time:

Again, learning to do the kata, is step 1. This is where many people stop or get stuck. For many, it is because their instructor doesn't know any better. Anytime an art, that has kata, feels restricted by the kata (that technique is not on our kata therefore it is not in our art... our art does not handle that type of situation, because our kata don't contain that situation...) it means the art has gotten stuck in the Shu part of the process.

Correctly understood, the Shu Ha Ri process is about creativity, not simply memorizing patterns.

In the Ha stage, the student diverges from the kata. As in, the student makes changes to the kata.

This is the first stage of introducing creativity. It must be done with the help of the sensei, so that the kata remains recognizable... or in other words, says the same thing, but with different words. Learning happens both when the student makes a good divergence and when he makes a divergence which is too great or changes the nature of the kata, or what it says. Both, especially the latter, help the student to understand what the kata is communicating in the first place. At this stage, the student is not confined to repeating the same things, the same words, but is encouraged to say the same thing with different words.

The final stage is Ri. This is where the kata are thrown away.


The Shu Ha Ri process is designed to communicate the art, in such a way that the artist is completely free to express his art as he sees fit. The Kata is a tool used to see the art, to explore the art, to understand the art, but it is not the art.



A full reading of the second article I posted above is worth the time. (all of my quotes above come from that article) I feel we would have much better discussions about kata, if we had a better understanding of how they were designed to be used. That many places do not use them in this fashion says more about the place than it does about the tool. The tool, when used correctly, can help produce amazing results... it also has to be used in conjunction with the other tools. We have too many people trying to build a house with just a hammer...

Just such a wonderful post, really touched a chord in me and helped reinforce in me why I practice, appreciate the deeper trajectory my journey has taken me, and what martial arts means to me.

Thank you for the reminder

 

[skribs]

There are roundhouse kicks in TKD poomsae. Taegeuk 6.

Considering how big a part it plays in our sparring, that's like saying you seasoned a vat by adding a pinch of salt.

 

[_Simon_]

But you still have not explained why your form creator didn't include roundhouse kick into the form that he created.

Because as @wab25 stated earlier, the form is not the art, but a tool that helps to learn fundamental principles as well as for exploring the art deeply.

If the forms were only seen as a dictionary or catalogue of techniques in the style, then the forms would need to include every single technique that's within the art. But again, this isn't the purpose of the forms.

 

[J. Pickard]

Considering how big a part it plays in our sparring, that's like saying you seasoned a vat by adding a pinch of salt.

That's fair

 

[J. Pickard]

Forms are a teaching tool. The key point of that sentence is the letter "A". They are not the only teaching tool, and there is no reason to think that you cannot learn or use a skill without that skill being in your forms.

I think this is a valid point. The basic mechanics of a roundhouse kick are very similar to a side kick and many kata have inside crescent kicks. Just apply the hip rotation of a side kick to an inside crescent kick and you have a rudimentary roundhouse kick. How many of us have tried to teach a beginner a side kick and it ends up looking like a round kick unintentionally? The basics of a round kick are there, you just have to piece it together.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think this is a valid point. The basic mechanics of a roundhouse kick are very similar to a side kick and many kata have inside crescent kicks. Just apply the hip rotation of a side kick to an inside crescent kick and you have a rudimentary roundhouse kick. How many of us have tried to teach a beginner a side kick and it ends up looking like a round kick unintentionally? The basics of a round kick are there, you just have to piece it together.

It's a truism that the best hook kicks are done by new students trying to learn the side kick.

 

[wab25]

I think this is a valid point. The basic mechanics of a roundhouse kick are very similar to a side kick and many kata have inside crescent kicks. Just apply the hip rotation of a side kick to an inside crescent kick and you have a rudimentary roundhouse kick. How many of us have tried to teach a beginner a side kick and it ends up looking like a round kick unintentionally? The basics of a round kick are there, you just have to piece it together.

This is an example of trying to look at the Kata as a dictionary of techniques. In sparring, we use technique A a lot. So, you are then expecting to see technique A in the kata. In fact, you are trying to correlate the amount of usage of technique A in sparring to the amount of times it shows up in your dictionary. When that does not show the correlation you want, you break it down into pieces, so that you can show the correlation between your dictionary and how you spar. But, thats not how Kata were designed to be used, or should be used. Yes, I can drive a nail with a crescent wrench... but, it works much better if use the proper tool.

Go back to the English Grammar Textbook example. It is possible for such a textbook to teach you how to use verbs, without listing out every single verb that exists in the English language. I would bet that at some point in your life, you will successfully and effectively, use a verb that was not in your English Grammar Textbook... That verb, even though it was not in your textbook, is still part of the English Language... the same English Language that you used the Grammar Textbook to study. This is just how technique A can be part of the martial art that you use kata to study, even though the kata does not have technique A in them.

If you are looking at kata, to define the techniques you can use... you are missing most of what is in kata. Further, you are introducing an artificial barrier or constraint to your art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wrestlers use all sorts of kata.

 

[J. Pickard]

This is an example of trying to look at the Kata as a dictionary of techniques. In sparring, we use technique A a lot. So, you are then expecting to see technique A in the kata. In fact, you are trying to correlate the amount of usage of technique A in sparring to the amount of times it shows up in your dictionary. When that does not show the correlation you want, you break it down into pieces, so that you can show the correlation between your dictionary and how you spar. But, thats not how Kata were designed to be used, or should be used. Yes, I can drive a nail with a crescent wrench... but, it works much better if use the proper tool.

Go back to the English Grammar Textbook example. It is possible for such a textbook to teach you how to use verbs, without listing out every single verb that exists in the English language. I would bet that at some point in your life, you will successfully and effectively, use a verb that was not in your English Grammar Textbook... That verb, even though it was not in your textbook, is still part of the English Language... the same English Language that you used the Grammar Textbook to study. This is just how technique A can be part of the martial art that you use kata to study, even though the kata does not have technique A in them.

If you are looking at kata, to define the techniques you can use... you are missing most of what is in kata. Further, you are introducing an artificial barrier or constraint to your art.

I agree with this. My point was that just because a technique isn't in a form doesn't mean that there isn't technical overlap from a form to a technique that isn't in said form. None of the forms I practice have a hook punch in them (targeted to the head to a target in front of you at least) but it is one of my go to techniques when sparring, but a few forms that I practice do have horizontal elbows in them aimed at the head in a more squared up stance. The hip/shoulder rotation is very similar in both techniques and can be applied to both. Understanding the biomechanics of the elbow strike made it so that when I went to a boxing coach to learn the proper way to throw a hook I already had a steady foundation of how the biomechanics of the hip/shoulder rotation worked. I hope that explains what I meant a bit better.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It's just like the Bucho Brothers and Hung Dynasty right.

I've got even better. Banned in China!

 

[hoshin1600]

What should be B's respond in the following Q&A?

A: Does your style have roundhouse kick?
B: We don have it in our forms, But we have it in our training.
A: Why didn't your form creator put it into your form?
B: ...

The following was told to me as factual by credible sources. No foolin...
We have a round house kick because back in the 1970's on Okinawa they have karate demonstrations and Bruce Lee was popular so we added the round kick we saw Bruce do into the demo because it looked good. Students liked it and it got incorporated into the two person sets. Thus it is now part of the curriculum