Shu Ha Ri

[skribs]

Your theory relies on the idea, that those who created TKD and those who modified it to be more Korean, had no understanding of the arts that they spent years of their lives studying.

Not "no understanding". A surface-level understanding of dumbed-down versions kata that were taught by their occupiers.

It's not just an idea, but what I've heard in many discussions on the subject.

 

[Hyoho]

Not necessarily. From what I've read, there were a few issues at play that the Korean students didn't learn the full lessons from the Japanese instructors.

• Japanese did not want to teach the full curriculum to the Koreans.
• The versions of the kata the Koreans were learning were the kid-friendly versions modified for teaching Karate in school.
• The training stopped when the occupation was over.

Even if Choi did, and created his forms to meet the same purpose, then that only applies to ITF. It does not apply to other styles to come after ITF. Many of the decisions around the creation of KKW had more to do with politics than the training itself. The KKW was created to replace ITF after General Choi had a falling out with the South Korean government, and part of the push to develop the forms was to make them Korean and not Japanese.


That's a question I spent a long time trying to answer. I finally found mine (it's an exercise and a performance). This is also why I am so critical in searching for the application. I believe a lot of people have found a "good enough" answer, which they use to appease this issue. "Good enough" isn't good enough for me. I want the best answer.

Japan has pushed the art form since WWll to downplay the animosity shown towards it. It's the second time that Japanese arts have gone through a survival period as they were re instituted as a "sport like educational activity". But its the purpose of the the more classical older arts to try and show what they really were, apart from the actual act of killing someone. But the true value of sword work is still not to draw unless absolutely necessary. And would press the fact that weapons have been used for all the wrong reasons.

My experience of Japanese seminars in Korea have been that they don't turn up on the second day because they don't want to do fundamentals. There has been an instance of a Japanese delegation having to return home.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why does making a form Korean also make it incoherent? Why does it strip away all meaning and all layers? Do Koreans not have the ability to form coherent thoughts?

I’m not a TKD guy so I’m gonna make some comments that very well could be off-base. I certainly do not know what went on behind the scenes when the TKD folks created the Palgwe and Taegeuk series of poomsae and stopped doing the shotokan kata. However, it has been said that the Koreans wanted to create new forms to separate from the Japanese systems and create their own identity in a martial art. If this is in fact at least part of what motivated the change, then I think a potential problem or two are at least plausible.

First, what motivations took priority? Did getting that separation established take precedence over creating meaningful poomsae with a rich body of functional technique, that would be an enhancement to the training? If so, then It is quite possible that the new series was slapped together without much thought, in order to “get it done already, get those damned Japanese kata out of our system.”

Second, as the sporting aspect of TKD became more prominent, was there motivation to create poomsae that were closer to performance art, meant to impress an uneducated audience at the expense of functional training material? Was there a plan for a competition format in which poomsae would fill this purpose? This is exactly what the Chinese government did when they mandated the creation of Modern Wushu as a National cultural art form and competition. Modern Wushu forms are pretty to watch and can demand great athleticism, they are reminiscent of combative methods, but they are light on worthwhile combative training. They are closer to a martial-flavored gymnastics floor routine. That was intentional on the part of the Chinese government.

Third, it is my understanding that these series of poomsae were created by a committee. Is it possible that the committee, as talented and knowledgeable as the individuals may have been, was disharmonious and full of strife and disagreement; the priorities of the committee members conflicted with each other, and the final results, what could be agreed upon, was a compilation of simplicity that had little depth, and even questionable sequences and combinations that are non-functional or even dysfunctional?

Fourth, it is my understanding that these entire series were created as a project, and was done rapidly. Perhaps that rush was done, again, to get those Japanese kata gone, but even beyond that, it makes one wonder how much thought went into them at all? It seems to me that a martial system grows up gradually. Material is added here and there to a core set of concepts and principles, often done over generations. It is probably not typical that a founder creates a complete curriculum all at once. I wonder if a curriculum created so quickly might be rife with problems.

So my point is, I think it is plausible that the Koreans who created the new poomsae did a poor job. Not because they are Koreans, but because of other issues and motivations and politics that might have been in the mix, when these forms were developed.

If this is true, or parts or some of these issues were true, then it could limit the value of TKD poomsae as exercises with combative value.

Just my thoughts, as an outsider looking in.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I’m not a TKD guy so I’m gonna make some comments that very well could be off-base.

I think I can be counted as a TKD guy.

I certainly do not know what went on behind the scenes when the TKD folks created the Palgwe and Taegeuk series of poomsae and stopped doing the shotokan kata. However, it has been said that the Koreans wanted to create new forms to separate from the Japanese systems and create their own identity in a martial art. If this is in fact at least part of what motivated the change, then I think a potential problem or two are at least plausible.

And to emphasize kicking.

First, what motivations took priority? Did getting that separation established take precedence over creating meaningful poomsae with a rich body of functional technique, that would be an enhancement to the training? If so, then It is quite possible that the new series was slapped together without much thought, in order to “get it done already, get those damned Japanese kata out of our system.”

They were slapped together over a period of years, not months or weeks. The various Kwan formed in the 1940's, for the most part, and development of distinct Korean forms began pretty quickly thereafter, and became a group project with the unification in 1961. The Palgwae and Yudanja forms were introduced in 1967 or' '68. The Taegeuk forms in '70 or '71. I can find the exact dates if you want, but those are close. I don't think that many years can really be considered "slapped together".

Second, as the sporting aspect of TKD became more prominent, was there motivation to create poomsae that were closer to performance art, meant to impress an uneducated audience at the expense of functional training material? Was there a plan for a competition format in which poomsae would fill this purpose? This is exactly what the Chinese government did when they mandated the creation of Modern Wushu as a National cultural art form and competition. Modern Wushu forms are pretty to watch and can demand great athleticism, they are reminiscent of combative methods, but they are light on worthwhile combative training. They are closer to a martial-flavored gymnastics floor routine. That was intentional on the part of the Chinese government.

This is certainly not true of the Palgwae, Taegeuk, Yudanja, or Chang Hon forms. There have been some more recent forms developed specifically as demo forms, but they are definitely not the sort of "tricking" form I think you're talking about.
Certainly tricking-type things exist, but they are pretty much limited to the school or individual level.

Third, it is my understanding that these series of poomsae were created by a committee. Is it possible that the committee, as talented and knowledgeable as the individuals may have been, was disharmonious and full of strife and disagreement; the priorities of the committee members conflicted with each other, and the final results, what could be agreed upon, was a compilation of simplicity that had little depth, and even questionable sequences and combinations that are non-functional or even dysfunctional?

Nope. The Palgwae, Taegeuk, Yudanja and Chang Hon forms have plenty of depth and are excellent teaching tools.
There are other TKD branches that use other form sets, and I cannot speak to them.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I practice and teach taekwondo. We still practice the "old" Japanese/Okinawan form sets. While we don't use the Japanese term of Shu Ha Ri, it is the manner in which I emphasize hyung practice.

Concepts and movements are linked and practiced between hyung practice and partnered drills/one step sparring, as appropriate for the rank/experience. At a certain point in training, big proverbial light bulb moments happen that link bigger concepts/ideas/strategies together. I haven't had any "new" forms to learn since 1999, and my forms practice is more enriching now than it ever has been.