Why most martial arts don't work in self defense.

[dvcochran]

But this inconsistent idea that one person can make any claim he wants and the other has to back up a claim is the unreasonable stance.

It does not feel like anyone is asking you to support their claims. Most people are just asking for a more open mind.

Youtube is great for getting information on things you do not know. I have learned over time that I have to watch at least 6-8 videos of the same topic to really get an accurate understanding. Close to 1/2 will be flat out wrong or done in a very odd/hard fashion.
I see your constant request for video of technique being little different. If you are shown slow, step by step motion of a technique you will call BS. If you watch 6-8 videos of the same technique, at speed, you will correctly call 1/2 of them BS. EVEN it is a technique you already have high confidence in.

So what is the point of the exercise? This is most definitely a 'agree to disagree' moment and move on.

As far as certain posters are concerned, I get it. They can be trying. But it does you, this forum, or them no good to berate them, even if they fully deserve it (yes I have been guilty of this). If you are like me, it is mostly in an effort to 'steer' or help the poster(s) see a topic from a broader/higher viewpoint. Speaking to myself as well here but using a little tact is in order when doing so.

 

[skribs]

@skribs, put him on ignore and don’t ever take him off. Don’t look at his posts, ever, for any reason.

If you feel he is stalking you, report him. If his actions merit, he can be removed from these forums.

I am going to follow this advice. If I do happen to see any more posts targeting me for no reason, I will simply report them and not engage him anymore.

 

[skribs]

It does not feel like anyone is asking you to support their claims. Most people are just asking for a more open mind.

This. So much this.

 

[drop bear]

For someone who doesn’t like the term “self defense” when others use it, you certainly like to use it to categorize others’ training without knowledge of that training. You stereotype in the worst way, then use confirmation bias and weasely “logic” to back up your claims.

Much of what I teach works in MMA, because it’s the same stuff that’s basic in a lot of places. Good basic grappling works, good basic striking works. You just don’t like the name of the system and the stated primary purpose of the training.

Yeah. When people can't show results from training they won't be specific about I assume they are being dishonest. It is basically the too deadly to spar argument.

See when you say much of what you teach works in MMA. We could assume you teach people who do MMA and what you teach works.

Or it could be you teach punches. MMA uses punches so what you teach is what works in MMA.

But they are two completely different things and we will never know which it is because being deliberately obscure is ok.

Good grappling/Striking works but bad grappling/Striking doesn't. And again you could be doing either. Nobody really knows.

So if Mabye good mabye bad training, let's just roll the dice and hope, is the standard. Then self defense training as a whole can be looked on as suspect. Like any product with bad quality control. You get enough lemons you start doubting the whole process.

Add to that people being super cagey about whether their training works at all and you have a suspect product.

But the biggest issue is you also create a culture that advantages the scammers. There is only so much fact to compete with infinite fantasy and without any way to tell the difference. Fantasy is always going to look better.

Why struggle with one guy when you can fight ten with ease?

And so when Rat finally starts his own system and yourself and him stand on equal footing as self defense instructors just remember that this idea that nobody needs to be accountable is the vehicle that will allow him to do it.

 

[drop bear]

It does not feel like anyone is asking you to support their claims. Most people are just asking for a more open mind.

Youtube is great for getting information on things you do not know. I have learned over time that I have to watch at least 6-8 videos of the same topic to really get an accurate understanding. Close to 1/2 will be flat out wrong or done in a very odd/hard fashion.
I see your constant request for video of technique being little different. If you are shown slow, step by step motion of a technique you will call BS. If you watch 6-8 videos of the same technique, at speed, you will correctly call 1/2 of them BS. EVEN it is a technique you already have high confidence in.

So what is the point of the exercise? This is most definitely a 'agree to disagree' moment and move on.

As far as certain posters are concerned, I get it. They can be trying. But it does you, this forum, or them no good to berate them, even if they fully deserve it (yes I have been guilty of this). If you are like me, it is mostly in an effort to 'steer' or help the poster(s) see a topic from a broader/higher viewpoint. Speaking to myself as well here but using a little tact is in order when doing so.

Yeah. I get that I am being mean. And honestly it is only the worst of the worst comments that are basically straight up fantasy that set me off.

But in my defense you know what doesn't work in Hapkido?

Standing arm bars.

 

[drop bear]

Except for when you make uninformed claims about others, then try to make it their obligation to disprove them. Then your ability to contribute is severely limited by your tactics.

Well not really. You see if making vague unsupportable claims about ourselves is reasonable. Then my claims may not be uninformed. How would you know? I could be a Hapkido black belt and am speaking from experience. I may have taught Skribs those arm bars.

I mean this is how dishonest a tactic this is.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you say much of what you teach works in MMA.

If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique. That technique may be used in MMA sometime in the future and that day just hasn't come yet.

Will someone be able to figure out "knee strike, single leg" in MMA sometime in the future? I think it will happen.

 

[drop bear]

If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique. That technique may be used in MMA sometime in the future and that day just hasn't come yet.

Will someone be able to figure out "knee strike, single leg" in MMA sometime in the future? I think it will happen.

It is more along the lines of someone teaches a method that works to whatever level they made it work.

So if say someone teaches that throw to a bunch of guys and they use it in MMA then we can draw a line between that instruction and that result.

But if you teach a double leg. A throw that is commonly used in MMA but nobody you teach does that throw in MMA. Then you might be teaching a crappy throw.

Imagine boxersise saying that they teach techniques that work in boxing. I mean they do but they also don't.

Now the way to tell the difference would be to either look at the results or look at the training.

Or in this case not. Because apparently we can hide those two crucial pieces of information. This is also a pretty unique stance in that I cannot imagine any other situation where someone would be believed at this point.

 

[Bruce7]

This is a good point to further divide the purpose of MA's practice for some people.
TMA with hard contact and emphasis
Sport MA
MA done more as healthful exercise only. No desire or intent for hard contact or competition.

The last one gets tough to translate sometimes. I suppose it is in the same category as kid students keeping the doors open. Don't misunderstand the message. Every practitioner should get the same training and exposure. It is just a fact of life that some people can/will be able to go harder than others. Where/when/how you decide each person has satisfied the curriculum requirements is subjective. The 35 year old engineer with 4 kids and a wife, mortgage and other debt will look at things differently from the 24 year old unmarried engineer. Always. @drop bear , this has to be factored into the SM.

Everybody spars in our classes. Hard rule. We have some adults that will never be competitive. They go light in sparring and that is understood. I take the time to have clear concise conversations about the effects. I always try to offset the loss of sparring effects with hard contact drills.
Somehow, somewhere every person learning a martial art must experience the sensation of being rocked and how to not freeze up and overcome it. I know of no other way to experience this than to have it repeatedly happen. If anyone else has found ways to minimize the risk I would love to hear them.

There has been some very good references about the effects of stress. Stress comes in two primary forms; mental stress and physical stress. Interestingly, each can affect the other and the variables are almost endless.
A mildly fit, sedentary worker with a laser focus and strong mental acuity can overcome more physical exertion than a body builder or defensive lineman in some situations. Naturally, the inverse can also be true.
Interestingly, there is quite a lot of recorded evidence of people of apparently average strength doing super human feats for extended periods. It is thought to be a Placebo effect whereas since the body has never felt stress at such a level it does not register it as a negative thus the mind does not tell the body to shut down. Pretty cool stuff to me and exactly the 'indominable spirit' that many martial arts talk about.

I think the greatest variable in this discussion is at what point does the stress of a situation start to adversely affect the person?

Some people come in our classes and are effectively stressed before they ever walk in the door. Others come in with quite a lot of capacity. I have seen a similar occurrence in siblings of close age a number of times. Regardless of where the stress trigger starts for a given person the goal is to move the trigger farther out as they continue to practice. Learning how to move the scale for each individual is a challenge the instructor/teacher has to figure out.

All this said, I feel some people will always have a greater capacity for stress than others.

Your post got me to thinking.
A young man who has been in a lot of fights may be able to use his training in a fight better than someone who has never been in a fight.
Learning MA from a good teacher made me a much better fighter.
Had I not developed the ability to ignor pain and be focus on hurting the other guy, MA may not had helped as much in a fight.
When I got a family I did not want to fight, my focus was on enjoying my family.
If you stay out of bar and do'nt look for fights, it is unlikely you will need to be able to fight.
IMO MA is bout developing your mind and body not learning to fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So if say someone teaches that throw to a bunch of guys and they use it in MMA then we can draw a line between that instruction and that result.

Here is another technique that's not used in MMA. IMO, it's the throw that's difficult to counter it.

 

[drop bear]

Here is another technique that's not used in MMA. IMO, it's the throw that's difficult to counter it.

There was a little known MMA fighter who did use that.

And there are plenty of judoesk leg attacks that get used.

Now just because Rhonda Rousey and judo experts successfully hit those throws doesn't mean I can or teach others to.

There has to be this continual line of competence. Or the technique for all practical purposes doesn't work.

And this is an important factor to why self defense doesn't work. Because it doesn't matter who else can hit that throw. If I can't and try it I will get my head kicked in.

So what happens is you get a system the IDF uses that is taught by a guy who has never had a fight to soccer mums. And suddenly self defense doesn't work.

Without the accountability that I have been pushing the whole thread you create a broken system. And this is regardless of the system in question.

There really are non negotiable methods to teaching successful martial arts skills.

You wind up with this. which is why nobody wants to show their training.

 

[drop bear]

Your post got me to thinking.
A young man who has been in a lot of fights may be able to use his training in a fight better than someone who has never been in a fight.
Learning MA from a good teacher made me a much better fighter.
Had I not developed the ability to ignor pain and be focus on hurting the other guy, MA may not had helped as much in a fight.
When I got a family I did not want to fight, my focus was on enjoying my family.
If you stay out of bar and do'nt look for fights, it is unlikely you will need to be able to fight.
IMO MA is bout developing your mind and body not learning to fight.

This subject gets covered in the first 20 seconds or so.

Otherwise look up Nietzsche

 

[drop bear]

If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique. That technique may be used in MMA sometime in the future and that day just hasn't come yet.

Will someone be able to figure out "knee strike, single leg" in MMA sometime in the future? I think it will happen.

And there is a Thai sweep that works like that.

Ok. So to make a very important separate point because I don't think people recognize this issue.

I did this sort of martial arts training for a long while. And it retarded my fighting ability even though I was apparently advancing in technical skill.

It is just not close enough to the shape or pace of fighting to give me the tools to properly address fighting.

Fighting back changes the mechanics of a technique. Things like timing which isn't that important because you know how a person is going to react. Suddenly become vital when you are trying to read how a person is going to react.

And the techniques done in that manner become almost impossible to pull off.

That overhand right that you could counter block and strike easily when added with uncertainty a real threat of injury and pace pressure and intent becomes very hard to counter.

And so what happened was I would step in a ring with some guy with six months training and not be able to counter what should be some really sloppy boxing.

Suddenly when I was made accountable for my martial arts I was forced to change my outlook on martial arts.

And that is a common story.

That martial arts instructor was almost garunteed to have trained to counter loopy hooks. Probably had done for years. Yet in this case he couldn't.

 

[jobo]

And there is a Thai sweep that works like that.

Ok. So to make a very important separate point because I don't think people recognize this issue.

I did this sort of martial arts training for a long while. And it retarded my fighting ability even though I was apparently advancing in technical skill.

It is just not close enough to the shape or pace of fighting to give me the tools to properly address fighting.

Fighting back changes the mechanics of a technique. Things like timing which isn't that important because you know how a person is going to react. Suddenly become vital when you are trying to read how a person is going to react.

And the techniques done in that manner become almost impossible to pull off.

That overhand right that you could counter block and strike easily when added with uncertainty a real threat of injury and pace pressure and intent becomes very hard to counter.

And so what happened was I would step in a ring with some guy with six months training and not be able to counter what should be some really sloppy boxing.

Suddenly when I was made accountable for my martial arts I was forced to change my outlook on martial arts.

And that is a common story.

That martial arts instructor was almost garunteed to have trained to counter loopy hooks. Probably had done for years. Yet in this case he couldn't.

all the points you make are valid, but your taking them all to far.

all tma work, they do, at least all the ones ive done do, which is a reasonable cross section, but then i could hold my own in fights with most people with out them, so they were added value of improved technque.

bouncers get beaten up on a fairly regular basis, if they end up in a fight with even numbers and hardly at all if they out number you five to one, which is generaly the case, hell ive beaten a few of them myself as a young man, if they made the mistake of trying to pulp me one on one.

people who are selling self defence that doesnt include a considerable amount of physical conditioning are almost cetainly misrepresenting the effectivness of what they are selling, because '' fighting'' is first and foremost an athletic activerty, and there is a very good chance the fittest will win, if not immediaetly through brute strengh then shortly after through attricion

or to put it more simply, all these technuques will work if you have the physicality to make them and to stick around long enough for them to and non will work if you dont

putting up vids of hulking profesional mma fighter v skinny TC masters doesnt alter that. theres a fair chance he would have done much the same to a less able MMA student, which would then have proved precisly nothing, but the better man won

 

[drop bear]

all the points you make are valid, but your taking them all to far.

all tma work, they do, at least all the ones ive done do, which is a reasonable cross section, but then i could hold my own in fights with most people with out them, so they were added value of improved technque.

bouncers get beaten up on a fairly regular basis, if they end up in a fight with even numbers and hardly at all if they out number you five to one, which is generaly the case, hell ive beaten a few of them myself as a young man, if they made the mistake of trying to pulp me one on one.

people who are selling self defence that doesnt include a considerable amount of physical conditioning are almost cetainly misrepresenting the effectivness of what they are selling, because '' fighting'' is first and foremost an athletic activerty, and there is a very good chance the fittest will win, if not immediaetly through brute strengh then shortly after through attricion

or to put it more simply, all these technuques will work if you have the physicality to make them and to stick around long enough for them to and non will work if you dont

putting up vids of hulking profesional mma fighter v skinny TC masters doesnt alter that. theres a fair chance he would have done much the same to a less able MMA student, which would then have proved precisly nothing, but the better man won

Physicality is definitely a factor. And as a trained skill physicality is a martial technique.

It is not whether you get beaten by the better man it is if you figure out why.

 

[Flying Crane]

If a technique has never been used in MMA, we may assume it must be a bad technique.

I would never make that assumption.

 

[dvcochran]

There has to be this continual line of competence. Or the technique for all practical purposes doesn't work.
I have read No one arguing against the statement.

And this is an important factor to why self defense doesn't work. Because it doesn't matter who else can hit that throw. If I can't and try it I will get my head kicked in.

Possibly this is part of your rub. It is apparent you summarily take the approach that if You cannot get a technique to work it must be crap. Believe it or not, you will find this occurrence in every walk of your life.
There are techniques that I can no longer do as well as I once did. Some I would say I was never very good at. But I know they have value and see other people perform them quite well. Why should I not continue to teach them?

Now just because Rhonda Rousey and judo experts successfully hit those throws doesn't mean I can or teach others to.

Now you are just contradicting yourself.

Without the accountability that I have been pushing the whole thread you create a broken system

Everybody is in agreement with this statement. Have been the whole thread. But you keep moving the target making 'accountability' unreachable no mater what the method/process is. Argument for the sake of argument.

There really are non negotiable methods to teaching successful martial arts skills.

Again, nobody is in disagreement with this statement.
You seem to use video like it is your bible. The outliers (the fact that they exist) have to be factored in. When the medium used for sampling is composed of largely outliers, how can the sampling be any where near correct?

 

[dvcochran]

Physicality is definitely a factor. And as a trained skill physicality is a martial technique.

It is not whether you get beaten by the better man it is if you figure out why.

I cannot agree with that. In my experience the word physicality is the 'want to' I referred to in a previous post. It is an innate trait. You have it or you do not. It is not necessarily the 'bigger, faster, stronger' person. It is the guy who keeps digging and coming back for more.

phys·i·cal·i·ty
/ˌfizəˈkalədē/
noun
noun: physicality

1. the fact of relating to the body as opposed to the mind; physical presence.
   "there's an emphasis on the physicality of the actors"
   • involvement of a lot of bodily contact or activity.
     "the intense physicality of a dancer's life"

 

[drop bear]

Possibly this is part of your rub. It is apparent you summarily take the approach that if You cannot get a technique to work it must be crap. Believe it or not, you will find this occurrence in every walk of your life.
There are techniques that I can no longer do as well as I once did. Some I would say I was never very good at. But I know they have value and see other people perform them quite well. Why should I not continue to teach them?


Now you are just contradicting yourself.


Everybody is in agreement with this statement. Have been the whole thread. But you keep moving the target making 'accountability' unreachable no mater what the method/process is. Argument for the sake of argument.


Again, nobody is in disagreement with this statement.
You seem to use video like it is your bible. The outliers (the fact that they exist) have to be factored in. When the medium used for sampling is composed of largely outliers, how can the sampling be any where near correct?

Yeah. The reason I use video like a bible is because people are being very sneaky about the way they describe things. So that it sounds like they are doing one thing but are in reality doing another.

It is used in political speeches and marketing a lot as well. And it lets people back out of a statement by claiming you didn't understand it.

And it is very martial arts because because of this culture of mysterious masters giving out this wisdom to hopeful aspirants leads to this dogmatic thinking that doesn't question authority.

Now there is this little habit of martial arts instructors teaching things they have no idea about. So a double leg is very common in MMA and teaching defense to that technique makes sense.


So we can make a claim that a teacher teaches defense to double legs in his school. And based on nothing else we might assume he does that. He might assume he does that.

Then we look at the video.

So is this guy teaching what works in MMA?

Or is he teaching what doesn't work pretty much anywhere.

Even though these are moves that are incredibly successful if the instructor can't do them. He has broken that continuous link of continuity. And has created moves that are not successful.

They have removed accountability.

And this becomes a factor in why martial arts doesn't work.

 

[drop bear]

I cannot agree with that. In my experience the word physicality is the 'want to' I referred to in a previous post. It is an innate trait. You have it or you do not. It is not necessarily the 'bigger, faster, stronger' person. It is the guy who keeps digging and coming back for more.

phys·i·cal·i·ty
/ˌfizəˈkalədē/
noun
noun: physicality

1. the fact of relating to the body as opposed to the mind; physical presence.
   "there's an emphasis on the physicality of the actors"
   • involvement of a lot of bodily contact or activity.
     "the intense physicality of a dancer's life"

If you run you will get fitter.
If you lift heavy things you will get stronger
If you eat less food you will loose weight.

You may never gain talent.

Physicality is one of the guaranteed results from training.