Why do you like fighting?

[Jenna]

I don't like fighting. At times it may be unavoidable, but I strongly dislike it and have been very successful in avoiding it and finding other options. I don't like to get hurt. And I don't like to hurt others, I get no joy from it.

Michael! thank you.. you do not like hurting others and get no joy from it.. yet if certain criteria are met, it is like you say unavoidable and wholly necessary to hurt some one yes? x

 

[CB Jones]

"Reward all those wise enough to join you, utterly crush all who dare oppose you, and do so in so savage a manner as to completely cower any others who would challenge you."

Qoute attributed to Attila the Hun

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Reward all those wise enough to join you, utterly crush all who dare oppose you, and do so in so savage a manner as to completely cower any others who would challenge you."

Qoute attributed to Attila the Hun

That fits my mindset about multiple attackers. Not always the reality, but my mindset, nonetheless.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So the difference is a moral one, they talk of consent and mutual respect.. So then where there are not these criteria, fighting is immoral?

I understand the essence of what they mean.. still it not combat, fighting and violence different faces on the same die??

The morality is an important part of it. The other part is the emotional content of the physical actions.

Imagine a physical action, let's say a left hook to the jaw.

Now imagine a couple of different real life situations where that action might occur and the emotional meaning which is taken in by the recipient along with the physical impact.

First situation: the recipient of the punch is a child being beaten by a parent who becomes abusive when drunk. What emotional meaning might the child take from that and what lessons might the child carry with them for the rest of their life?

"I can never be safe or secure. The people who I love, who are supposed to take care of me, can turn on me at any moment."

"I must be a terrible person if even my own parent hates me enough to beat me like this."
or conversely
"Getting beaten and abused is part of what a loving relationship looks like."

"The way to handle frustration is to hurt other people."

"The way to be respected is to hurt other people."

Second situation: the recipient of the punch is myself during a sparring session with a friend. What emotional meaning might I attach to it and what lessons might I take with me as a result?

"Darn it, I need to work on not dropping my right hand when I jab."

"That's a really nice fake he used to set that up. I'll have to ask him how to show me how he does that."

"Don't get sloppy just because you're tired. Suck it up, fix your stance, fix your hand position, keep moving. You can do this."

"That didn't hurt as much as I expected. I guess I'm getting better at taking a punch."

Here we have two identical physical actions. In one case the recipient of the action may carry emotional scars for life which can cause them long term pain, mess up their personal relationships, and cause additional suffering for other people down the line. In the other case, the recipient of the action may become a better martial artist and be more confident in general.

If a physical action in a fight causes permanent injuries of some sort, then that is the same whether the context was a sportive competition or a street assault. However most fights don't cause significant permanent physical damage unless a deadly weapon is introduced into the mix. More often, the lasting effect is internal and comes from the meaning of the actions to the participants.

 

[Flying Crane]

Michael! thank you.. you do not like hurting others and get no joy from it.. yet if certain criteria are met, it is like you say unavoidable and wholly necessary to hurt some one yes? x

Yes, And in my opinion, even as a "last resort" people can be quick to engage in violence. Meaning, people decide they need to fight because they "don't have any other options", when in fact they do, there are still ways to avoid it.

 

[CB Jones]

When your life or health is endangered you do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes, And in my opinion, even as a "last resort" people can be quick to engage in violence. Meaning, people decide they need to fight because they "don't have any other options", when in fact they do, there are still ways to avoid it.

I wonder if this is related to the fact that there are countless movies (and other forms of entertainment) where the protagonist attempts to avoid fighting but the bad guys leave him no choice, whether that's a simple as blocking the exit or as extreme as murdering the protagonists family without the legal system being able to stop them. This allows the viewer to vicariously engage in the power fantasy of defeating multiple opponents and at the same time maintaining moral purity. "I didn't want to single-handedly beat up 50 Yakuza thugs. They left me no choice!" Even if the protagonist walks away from the initial provocation, it never works and frequently ends up leading to terrible consequences before the inevitable fight scenes. You don't see nearly so many stories where the protagonist defuses or walks away from every potential fight and it all works out for the best for everybody with no one having to get beat up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When your life or health is endangered you do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Agreed. And better yet to not have to face the 12, either. Most reasonable actions won't put most of us in court, except in extreme circumstances.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wonder if this is related to the fact that there are countless movies (and other forms of entertainment) where the protagonist attempts to avoid fighting but the bad guys leave him no choice, whether that's a simple as blocking the exit or as extreme as murdering the protagonists family without the legal system being able to stop them. This allows the viewer to vicariously engage in the power fantasy of defeating multiple opponents and at the same time maintaining moral purity. "I didn't want to single-handedly beat up 50 Yakuza thugs. They left me no choice!" Even if the protagonist walks away from the initial provocation, it never works and frequently ends up leading to terrible consequences before the inevitable fight scenes. You don't see nearly so many stories where the protagonist defuses or walks away from every potential fight and it all works out for the best for everybody with no one having to get beat up.

Agreed. Gandhi wasn't an action flick.

 

[Agoge]

I have been confronting violence head-on for going on 33 years and I can tell you that it has never been fun. I have been dealing with life and death confrontations for all of my adult life and though there are certain endorphins released, joy and fun are not equated with them. Just my opinion...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thank you for your reply.. You let me pick your brains yes??

What is your criteria for indexing that kung fu technique as successful? Is not that you inflict sufficient pain to cause your opponent to stop?

Short Answer:
A successful technique for me is one that I can use as it's intended. This success in entirely on the technique but my ability to use it as it was intended. Not all kung fu /fighting techniques cause pain.



Long Answer:
Kung Fu techniques and fighting techniques in general aren't rated successful based on the pain that they cause. Here's a list of Kung / Fighting techniques (because these techniques aren't only found in Kung Fu.
1. Breathing techniques
2. Footwork techniques
3. Structure techniques
4. Blocking techniques
5. Escaping techniques
6. Guiding techniques
7. Mental / misdirection techniques - these are the techniques that are done that interfere with your opponent's ability to what comes next. A the most simple level. I fake that I will punch but kick instead. Screaming and yelling with a punch or a kick often serves as to intimidate your opponent as well as help with that Breathing technique that is listed at top.
8. Breaking techniques
9. Techniques that wear down your opponent
10. Killing techniques -These are techniques that are done with the purpose of killing
12. Grappling techniques
13. Set up techniques
14. Countering techniques
15. Striking techniques

I can think of more but as you can see there are quite a bit of techniques that are involved. Each has a specific purpose, some cause pain other will help the practitioner to avoid or escape pain. The criteria for indexing which kung fu techniques as successful is more based on my ability to understand the technique enough to where I can actually use it and for the technique to work as it was intended to work.

Here's an example: If you teach me an escape technique and every time I use it, my opponent gets a black eye, then the technique is not a successful technique for escaping. You taught me a technique that doesn't do what it was intended to do when performed correctly. Your technique makes a good striking technique but does not work as an escaping technique.

Here's the other side of that. If you teach me an escape technique and every time I use it, I can't escape, then my first task is to ask myself what am I doing wrong. Do I have the understanding that is required to successfully use the technique? So I go back to you for more information. You show me the technique and that you are successful in using it in the same context that I'm trying to use it. Sometimes this requires a physical walk through sometimes I only need to show what I'm doing for the instructor to see where I goofed.

Then you have things that just don't work regardless. These are wasteful techniques (in reference to fighting). For the most part these would be flowery techniques which serve no combat purpose and were never designed for fighting. With these techniques I have to use them as they were intended instead of trying to use them for a task that they were never designed for. TKD is a very good example of a system that has flowery techniques, which were designed to show skill and were never meant to be used in self-defense fighting.

 

[CB Jones]

I have been confronting violence head-on for going on 33 years and I can tell you that it has never been fun. I have been dealing with life and death confrontations for all of my adult life and though there are certain endorphins released, joy and fun are not equated with them. Just my opinion...

Are you Batman?

 

[Agoge]

Are you Batman?

Maybe! But, I will never admit it....

 

[Flying Crane]

I wonder if this is related to the fact that there are countless movies (and other forms of entertainment) where the protagonist attempts to avoid fighting but the bad guys leave him no choice, whether that's a simple as blocking the exit or as extreme as murdering the protagonists family without the legal system being able to stop them. This allows the viewer to vicariously engage in the power fantasy of defeating multiple opponents and at the same time maintaining moral purity. "I didn't want to single-handedly beat up 50 Yakuza thugs. They left me no choice!" Even if the protagonist walks away from the initial provocation, it never works and frequently ends up leading to terrible consequences before the inevitable fight scenes. You don't see nearly so many stories where the protagonist defuses or walks away from every potential fight and it all works out for the best for everybody with no one having to get beat up.

Interesting thought. I don't know the answer, but it is plausible and could be at least part of it.

For me, I have walked, and even run, away from situations where I could have justified the violence. The violence just didn't seem worth it to me, even if I could honestly justify it. My ego is not damaged by running away.

I think a lot of people can't bring themselves to run away. It damages their ego. So they may try to defuse the situation, but if the assailant won't back down, they can't bring themselves to back down either and leave, even if it means running away. So they justify the violence instead.

 

[CB Jones]

Not all violence is avoidable though.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not all violence is avoidable though.

True. But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.

 

[Agoge]

True. But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.

There is no doubt a lot of violence that is committed in the name of ego. Due to people being people and ego what it is...there will always be needless violence.

 

[CB Jones]

True. But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.

True, but once you believe your life or health is endangered you do whatever you think you need to do to protect yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True. But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.

The difficulty is in recognizing the difference between something you can run away from, and turning your back on an attacker. There are things I could have run away from 10 or 20 years ago, which I cannot reliably run from now.

 

[CB Jones]

Also it can be easy to sit back and Monday Morning QB something but you got to remember experiencing the situation and looking at it after the fact is to completely different perspectives.