Why does point fighting get so much disrespect

[Ironbear24]

I don't like it. But I won't say it has no value of anything like that. I will say that if you only do that form of sparring you will develop terrible habbits. I often see them hanging out their legs after the kick is delivered, almost like holding a stick against someone. Same goes with their hands too, I don't agree with how points are awarded, they seem to give ge point to whomever "touched" the other opponent first in the target areas and don't seem to worry about if the strike was well an actual strike.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't agree with how points are awarded, they seem to give ge point to whomever "touched" the other opponent first in the target areas and don't seem to worry about if the strike was well an actual strike.

That is literally correct. Point-based sparring (in my experience) is absolutely based on touch and not technique. One 'technique' for scoring points that has become very popular is leaping in the air and tapping the opponent on top of their head. Literally something that would get you killed in a self-defense situation or even a real contact-based sparring situation, but it's a valid tech in point-sparring.

 

[Tez3]

That is literally correct. Point-based sparring (in my experience) is absolutely based on touch and not technique. One 'technique' for scoring points that has become very popular is leaping in the air and tapping the opponent on top of their head. Literally something that would get you killed in a self-defense situation or even a real contact-based sparring situation, but it's a valid tech in point-sparring.

From what I've seen rather than the touch it seems that the competitor who can give the loudest kiai as they go in to attack seems to win the point, it must look to the judges that the 'loud' competitor must necessarily have been also the one who touched first.

 

[Buka]

This is what point fighting used to look like, circa 1974. Yes, that's me in the black top, taking cheap shots with a knee, hooking the back of the head and punching the face. Took three good punches in that clinch before they gave me a point. Less you get the wrong idea - he started the brawl.

Unfortunately, he also finished it.

 

[Ironbear24]

That is literally correct. Point-based sparring (in my experience) is absolutely based on touch and not technique. One 'technique' for scoring points that has become very popular is leaping in the air and tapping the opponent on top of their head. Literally something that would get you killed in a self-defense situation or even a real contact-based sparring situation, but it's a valid tech in point-sparring.

If someone did that to me I'd have an uppercut waiting for them on the way down. This where point sparring enthusiasts will say well in a real fight we won't even do that.

But that is where they are wrong. When times becomes quick and hectic and stuff is actually on the line, such as real present danger. You will end up doing what you are used to doing through experiences and repetition of training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From what I've seen rather than the touch it seems that the competitor who can give the loudest kiai as they go in to attack seems to win the point, it must look to the judges that the 'loud' competitor must necessarily have been also the one who touched first.

lol you just reminded me of a video that I saved. Where students were doing continuous sparring but one guy forgot this and when straight into point sparring mode. lol

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If someone did that to me I'd have an uppercut waiting for them on the way down. This where point sparring enthusiasts will say well in a real fight we won't even do that.

But that is where they are wrong. When times becomes quick and hectic and stuff is actually on the line, such as real present danger. You will end up doing what you are used to doing through experiences and repetition of training.

I'm hip. I don't do point sparring anymore. I accidentally broke a competitor's nose a few years back. We were (point) sparring. I maneuvered him around to the edge of the ring and he knew it; when he looked down to check where he was, he dropped his guard. I hit him in the nose with a right cross, and that was that.

I felt horrible, honestly. Head shots were against the rules and I knew it. Hitting hard enough to draw blood was grounds for instant disqualification and I knew that also. I'm supposed to have better control than that, and I knew that as well. I honestly do not recall intentionally throwing the punch. His hands came down, my punch went out - total 'mushin' moment.

The problem is, that's how self-defense is supposed to work, and it's what I train for mostly. I do not train to point spar.

Since I apparently am incapable of doing point-sparring as it is supposed to be done, I decided to call it quits. I still judge point-sparring events if I am asked to, and as I've said, I have nothing against point-sparring per se, but I don't do it anymore. No, I'm not a great or wonderful fighter or any of that nonsense. I just don't trust myself not to take off my opponent's head if he drops his guard.

 

[Balrog]

Done right, point/middle style fighting is a great exercise. You learn to deliver your techniques, at speed, with an opponent. It's a chess game. Points, if working that way, are given for techniques that, had you landed with power and focus, would have done significant damage to your opponent. Clashes, unclean, blind, unfocused techniques didn't score. It isn't non-contact -- it's controlled contact. Full contact SHOULDN'T look very different -- except in the results of "points."

Agreed, It's actually harder to control contact, requiring a higher skill level, than simply going in and blasting your opponent.

Unfortunately, it's not done "right" very often. Most tournaments devolved to non-contact, unrealistic flails to see who can land a technique first. Focus and balance are sacrificed to manage to get something in, and there's often not even lip service paid to functionality.

Also agreed. And it's not just the school owners who are to blame, it's the people judging the rings who are letting them get away with crappy technique.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Also agreed. And it's not just the school owners who are to blame, it's the people judging the rings who are letting them get away with crappy technique.

I've been asked to judge at a few tournaments. It's hard work. You simply cannot see every landed point; your view is sometimes blocked, sometimes two opponents land blows at the same time, etc.

But as far as 'letting them get away with sloppy technique', there's not much I can do about it. As a ring judge, my job is to hold up my little flags to indicate a point scored in accordance with the published rules. If the rules say a touch to the head is a point, then that's what it is. I cannot change the rules to suit my interpretation of what good technique is. I have to reject the notion that it's the judge's fault. It is the fault of the people who wrote the rules that allow such garbage.

 

[jks9199]

Also agreed. And it's not just the school owners who are to blame, it's the people judging the rings who are letting them get away with crappy technique.

But as far as 'letting them get away with sloppy technique', there's not much I can do about it. As a ring judge, my job is to hold up my little flags to indicate a point scored in accordance with the published rules. If the rules say a touch to the head is a point, then that's what it is. I cannot change the rules to suit my interpretation of what good technique is. I have to reject the notion that it's the judge's fault. It is the fault of the people who wrote the rules that allow such garbage.

Most of the open tournaments I've judged at have started with a rules meeting for the black belts who will be judging. Generally, they will say that they want clean techniques, with balance and focus or the something similar. It's supposed to be similar to foil fencing, where the touch only counts if it bends the foil "enough" (which has been replaced by triggers the sensor) Unfortunately, those words mean different things to different judges -- and some just don't really care. Or maybe they just don't understand, because they call every thing that approximates a touch a point. The same idea with head shots/contact... if the flailing fist close to the head wouldn't have delivered a good technique (based on the general style principles -- for the moment, let's just say a balanced, rooted stance with a focused technique), it's not supposed to score. Of course... that's not how it always happens.

Another way to judge a similar level of fighting is continuous sparring. In these events, fighters are judged not only on landed techniques, but on control of the ring, general fighting style... and of course, shots landed. It's even harder to judge, really, because I've seen much better fighters who actually landed ever shot they threw lose to someone who was just aggressive and "pretty" in their fighting...

 

[thanson02]

I mean yeah I know it's not a realistic form of fighting and you'd never fight in a street fight like you do in a point match and yes some of the scoring is stupid but really it's a good bit of fun that any age can do from kids to adults in their 60s. Not everyone wants to compete and get bloody and bruised and beaten. I personally really enjoy the aspect of point fighting where you've got to think of strategies and different techniques and not just running in swinging for the fences. Also in point tournaments you fight lots of different people and have to adapt your style each time as every fight is different and since your opponent will have seen your previous match they'll know what your main moves are so you have to keep thinking up new ideas.

I have done both point sparring and full round sparring over the years. It has it's place and it makes sense and works in it's place. But so does full round sparring where they don't break for points.

I find point sparring works in:
1. Kids sparring when your more focused on building fundamentals and body mechanics.
2. Drilling full round sparring methods to improve tactics.
3. Weapons sparring, especially with bladed weapons.

I find full round sparring works in everything else.

To be honest, I am not a fan of point sparring for the same reasons others have mentioned. But as a training tool and for weapons, it makes sense.


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[JR 137]

Everything has its time and place. I personally think point fighting is best for young kids and or people just starting out. Its focus should be proper technique and control. Develop these skills without getting hit too hard and worrying about getting hit too hard. An early step in the progression in the learning cycle, i.e. learn the techniques against the air, against a pad/bag, use them in point fighting, use them in continuous light contact sparring, then use them in progressively harder contact sparring.

I did a few point fighting (and kata) tourneys during my first go-round in karate in my 20s. It was fun. By my 3rd tourney I vowed to not do it again. The rules and format were just too unrealistic to me, and beating people and getting beat by people under unrealistic rules wasn't fun anymore.

During my last match (in an open tourney), I was sparring against a guy from a different branch of the same organization I was in. He was a good guy, but I'd always have no problem beating him in continuous sparring knockdown sparring (we were a Kyokushin offshoot). During our match, he hit me with a perfect hook kick to the temple. Tapped my head and pulled back; had he followed through, he'd have easily KO'ed me. A split second after his kick landed, I hit him with 3 punches to the ribs (mine were on the way when he kicked). Referee stopped the match and awarded me a full point. I respectfully told him my opponent's kick landed first. His response: "he didn't bring his foot back down to the same spot he threw it from and into a stance." We both just stared at him with a look of amazement. I honestly felt like putting my hands up and letting him score a point to negate the idiotic point I scored.

But I'm going back on my vow...

My 5 year old daughter now trains with me. There's a huge event for our organization's 40th anniversary (Seido Juku) that ends with a tournament. It'll have people there from branches all over the world (Seido has dojos on every continent except Antarctica). A lot of the proceeds go to charity. I wasn't going to compete, but my daughter is hounding me to do it. She's all excited to see daddy spar.

The training for it will probably be more fun that the event itself. I'll improve some skills, and it'll change things up a bit. My teacher is running a tournament training class every other week for anyone who wants to compete or even just to work out a bit more. Very little actual point fighting, and a lot of continuous sparring. Different drills and a lot of conditioning.

Thanks to my 5 year old, I'm going to give point fighting one more shot. Or maybe again in 10 years for the 50th anniversary tourney when I'll be 50.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Point fighting makes counterpunching valueless. That's a problem.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks to my 5 year old, I'm going to give point fighting one more shot.

Enjoy your competition!

 

[JR 137]

Point fighting makes counterpunching valueless. That's a problem.

Counter punching after you've been hit, yes.
Counter punching after you made them miss, no.

 

[JR 137]

Enjoy your competition!

I'll try my best. It's $40 to compete in kata and kumite, so it's not too much. It's a 2 hour drive, so I'll compete, then we'll check into a hotel and visit NYC the day after. I used to work across the street from where the tournament is being held, so it'll be good to catch up with some old friends and hit some of the eateries we miss.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Counter punching after you've been hit, yes.
Counter punching after you made them miss, no.

The issue is there is no point in risking a counterpunch, since it doesn't have any advantage in point sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How to get score in "point sparring"?

- left hand grab on your opponent's Gi.
- right hand punch on his body.
- Kiai as loud as you can.
- Turn your head around and look at the judge.

 

[WaterGal]

Some of you need to take a step back, keep your macho attitudes in check and remember that the biggest demographic for martial arts are children. As an adult yeah I like full contact, as a parent, i don't want my five year old coming home with injuries. Children break things far more easily and can cause permanent damage. Case in point my nephew broke his forearm with a radial fracture. 5 pins and a cost of few grand out of pocket is not something I want to deal with. His arm will never be the same.
That being said the next point is many children do not have the emotional capacity to deal with contact sparring. At least at first, over time maybe but they need stepping stones to get there. If you put them under stressful situations like contact sparring before they are ready they will quit. Can't keep a karate dojo open these days without a kids program.
Third point, some people just don't want contact. That's their choice,,, live with it.....in car sales there is a saying "there is an **** for every seat" shouldn't be any different in martial arts. If you don't like it , don't do it..simple

I think full-contact/power for kids isn't appropriate, nor is punching to the head. But medium-contact continuous sparring to the body while wearing protective equipment is something most kids can handle. Yeah, a lot of them will whine when they get a bruise, and you might run into a sprained ankle or similar, so invest in some instant cold packs. They'll be fine, and learn an Important Life Lesson about dealing with adversity.

For what it's worth, I teach TKD classes to pre-schoolers and I have them do Olympic-style sparring after a few months. Granted, at that age/level, they're basically walking slowly around the ring taking turns doing low-power side kicks and punches and falling down every 30 seconds, but still, if a shy 3-year old girl that wears Disney princess headbands to class can handle (fairly light) continuous contact sparring, I think most older kids and adults can handle something rougher than light-contact point sparring.

 

[Tez3]

Turn your head around and look at the judge.

Which one? if you have judges at each corner you'll find it difficult to score that way.