Why do some debate so much over the origins of Taekwondo?

[kerc]

And what relevance do those origins (or lack of, so to speak) have in our training? None, I say.

I enjoy taekwondo for what it is, it builds my body, has allowed me to do things I thought I couldn't do, teaches me perseverance, respect, and has given me very nice goals to follow, some in TKD itself, some in my personal life.

I'm know I'm lucky to have a very nice Master, who has a pretty well-balanced view about things. We "treat" TKD with respect, but don't turn it into something holy. We learn the fancy moves, and also practical self-defense. It has helped my mildly-autistic son into developing his character and learning self-control and concentration (the forms are incredible for this!)...We have a lot of fun (yes, fun!), and feel renovated after each class, with a very positive outlook.

Why worry about so-called authenticity? If your martial art fills your body and your spirit, then it's good.

We need more positive taekwondo talk!

 

[ShelleyK]

I totally agree!

 

[dancingalone]

Many people dislike propaganda and lies in general, me being one of them. My goals in MA are not the same as those who created the 2000 year old myth in TKD, so it's natural for me to roll my eyes and to point out the holes in the story as it comes up in conversation here or in real life.

 

[kerc]

Many people dislike propaganda and lies in general, me being one of them. My goals in MA are not the same as those who created the 2000 year old myth in TKD, so it's natural for me to roll my eyes and to point out the holes in the story as it comes up in conversation here or in real life.

I can understand that, and in a way I'm agreeing with you in that there shouldn't be so much emphasis on the history of TKD (whatever that is, or might be). Some people here end up bashing each other over useless historical trivia. Maybe some people need some sort of validation by learning what is supposed to be an arcane art, when in truth it's not purely so.

Taekwondo is what it is, and some people love what it is. At least I know I'm liking a lot what I'm getting from taekwondo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kerc, there is a lengthy thread on this subject called, 'disappearing history' here in the TKD section. It is a good read if you have some time.

Here is a post that I made on that thread regarding why the history is so important:

The issue is the blatant revisionist history being put out for purely nationalistic reasons and which is being spread by those not even of the same nation. True, this fabrication is one that is easily debunked.... for now. But what about when the record is so badly distorted that taekwondo's true origins are lost, and those with first hand and even direct second hand accounts are no longer living to stand up for the factual events?

Earlier in this thread, one poster indicated that the pracitce of his art was more important than the history of it. On a personal level, this is true; knowing the history but being a poor practitioner is rather worthless unless you're a martial historian.

Where it becomes an issue is when the intent of our techniques are being researched. When in the more in depth study of our art, we look to the origins of the techiques to better understand them. If our technique is Shotokan derived, but we keep finding Subak and Taekyeon in our history, then where do we go to look? Subak and Taekyeon. So now you study Taekyeon to better understand Taekwondo, but the execution of the kicks is entirely different. Now you've hit a dead end. Now the search begins for a 'missing link' Korean art that was combined with Taekyeon, the records of which were surely destroyed by the Japanese during the occupation. But by gum, it must be there, because the kicks in modern TKD are not Taekyeon kicks. And so the search begins.

But it is nothing but a fruitless rabbit trail and a waste of time. Not because the records were destroyed, mind you, but because some group of insecure individuals couldn't handle admitting that there was any Japanese influence in Korea's most popular MA, so they simply lied and covered it up. Not only that, now there is speculation about the techiques of a nonexistant MA and the factors that led to its creation, and why it died out in favor of taekwondo. Perhaps evidence that really supports something else is then misinterpreted to be evidence of this nonexistant MA.

When National interests bear down on the origins of a martial art, something that has zero bearing on public policy, the MA will suffer and its developement be hindered. Then something truely Korean, truely spectacular, and truely worthwhile will have been lost.

That is why history of a martial art matters.

Daniel

Of course Dancingalone's simple comment about dislike of lies and propaganda is equally valid.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Kerc, that's a very mature perspective to have about the art. In truth I don't think the average person in a dojang gives much thought to the history of TKD, and that's probably fine.

I personally believe there's value in understanding the link between karate, TSD, and TKD, so you can share common resources like the pinan bunkai for starters.

edit: Daniel just beat me to the punch with a much more eloquent statement of what I said above. Celtic 'Tigger' indeed. I feel like Pooh Bear.

 

[tellner]

Well, part of it is the blatant lies and and ever-changing supremely grandiose bull crap that the Korean government has put out. Every martial art has creation myths which reassure the Faithful about how cool it is. But when it's part of a shamelessly transparent jingoistic campaign of nationalism it gets a little wearing. And when the stories keep getting bigger, more outrageous and change from month to month it becomes ridiculous.

 

[kerc]

I just stay out of the hype and stories, and focus on my learning.

 

[ATC]

Ego mainly, that's about it. No need to care so much about something that you can't change or prove one way or another. The way I see it you can't make up something from nothing. I say that there probably about 80% truths and 20% exaggeration or fabrication to the history. Just train in what you do and try to get better.

Everything evolves to become better anyway; anyone that wants to stay in the past and do the almighty traditional is not one that knows how to progress in my opinion. Boxers of today don’t box as they did in the past, and this is the same for the martial arts. I have seen videos of fighters just 30 or 40 years ago and they are no way as good as fighters of today. Kicks have been refined to be more direct with just as much power thus being faster and just as hard. Blocks have been refined to be quicker and more direct. More thought on bait and faints and the list goes on and on. So tradition is just that, tradition but remember everything evolves.

 

[terryl965]

Martial Arts in general has become more of Intregrity and respect and one cannot have those values if they cannot be truthful about there own Art. Me I train in it because I love for it simplicity of attack, but I am real old school when it comes to TKD and what it is truely.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I just stay out of the hype and stories, and focus on my learning.

The history issue is the tip of the iceberg. The issue is accepting information without question.

People are fed BS history in and believe it. If someone tells them their belief about history is founded on BS all sorts of reactions are possible. Some refuse to believe the truth no matter how overwhelming the evidence. Some are shatered when they realize they believed in BS history for so long.

Now, take the above paragraph and substitute "Technique" for "History".

 

[goingd]

Overly intricate talk of history and lineage is smeared all over the Korean martial arts. It's not that hard to figure out how things really happened. I know some masters who will only train with "senior, first generation" students of Dojunim Blankity Blank." I say if your master or teacher knows what they are doing, who cares? What's learned is important.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just stay out of the hype and stories, and focus on my learning.

That is what most of us do most of the time. But when someone tells me something that I know is, quite honestly, a lie, I am under no obligation to believe it. Also, lying about history is generally frowned upon. Why turn a blind eye to it just because it is about taekwondo?

Knowing the history of a fifty something year old art should be a no-brainer. It is one art that is new enough that each and every technique can be traced to its donor art and old enough to have refined those same techniques in unique ways. This enables the taekwondoin to take full advantage of material written by authorties in those donor arts (such as Ian Abernathy) as well as material by noted authorities within Taekwondo (such as Stuart Anslow).

That is the positive of the discussion of history. And of course, the reason why history is important.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

That is what most of us do most of the time. But when someone tells me something that I know is, quite honestly, a lie, I am under no obligation to believe it. Also, lying about history is generally frowned upon. Why turn a blind eye to it just because it is about taekwondo?

Knowing the history of a fifty something year old art should be a no-brainer. It is one art that is new enough that each and every technique can be traced to its donor art and old enough to have refined those same techniques in unique ways. This enables the taekwondoin to take full advantage of material written by authorties in those donor arts (such as Ian Abernathy) as well as material by noted authorities within Taekwondo (such as Stuart Anslow).

That is the positive of the discussion of history. And of course, the reason why history is important.

Daniel

You would think so, but as fate will have it - people live in a land of illusion. I like what you have said Daniel, keep fighting for the cause of truth.

 

[arnisador]

If you like what you're doing, great! But some experts in TKD technique are embarrassingly ignorant of its origins, and I find that unsettling...an expert should at least not "know" wrong stuff about his own area of expertise.

 

[Senjojutsu]

People... People... People...

Get it right, this issue is not just about TKD.

Korea is the source of ALL Oriental martial arts!!!

I mean 2,000+ years does cover a lot of territory.

…and just recently discovered the ancient masters can now be traced back to Kim Jong-il's family ancestors, Korea’s true "Great Leader".
Funny how that happened.
:xtrmshock

On a serious note, while many historical Oriental arts have some convoluted creation myths around the style’s founder, what I often think is the key historical research is looking at the “second headmaster” in any style’s lineage. It is often #2’s stamp on the codification of techniques – in conjunction with the direct training received from the founder - that sets the historical parameters for the lineage going forward. But if a style has a longer lineage (centuries) then what you have to also remember is just like kings, popes and presidents; there are greater and lesser "reigns".

Now for those who don’t give a crap about any history/lineage, okay, then why even call what you practice Tae Kwon Do?

Call it Fred Villari’s Studios of Self-defense (oops, that was taken years ago) or better yet maybe Joe’s All-American Kombat Karate.

 

[Manny]

It's true, TKD is one of the most practiced martial art over the world, and TKD has evolved thru the years to be one of the most popular sport contact, however some people (a lot people) thinks TKD has diverge from his original and old roots achiving this.

I love history, Mexican History is colorful and beautiful as an example, also I like religion history too, and I also like MA history cause it shows me how the things were created or improved.

Take me as example, I'm a grown man that's not interested in tournaments but very interested about the tactical esence of TKD in self defense, the poomse too, and the well executed technike of not only high kicks, but punches,empty hand strikes,trows,pins,locks,sweeps,etc,etc.

If I didn't know the TKD history I will be like the kids in the dojan that the only thing they know about TKD is kicking and nothing else and TKD is alot of more than that.

The history is debatable, everyone has his/hers point of view and with repect we can debate in a healthy way.

Manny

 

[Cirdan]

The lies about TKDs origins has also affected how it is taught and helped turning into the joke of an art it is in so many places today.
Old school TKD is a true functional art, sadly it is more common as a poorly passed on version with important aspects missing and replaced by show and mysticism to feed the masses.

 

[Miles]

Because it is fun!

I personally subscribe to the belief that it makes no difference to me whether TKD is 2000, 200, or 60 yrs old. Having said that, I own just about every TKD book out there and a number of books on Korea/China/Japan/Phillipine martial art history. I believe much of the problem is a difference in culture. Americans in particular want "The answer" which is not always what you get in the Orient. A good example of this is found in a book entitled, "Okinawan Karate:Teachers, Styles, Secrets" by Mark Bishop. Bishop speaks about the difficulty in dealing with people who want to put a particular spin on their answers rather than simply saying they don't know the answer.

 

[terryl965]

Because it is fun!

I personally subscribe to the belief that it makes no difference to me whether TKD is 2000, 200, or 60 yrs old. Having said that, I own just about every TKD book out there and a number of books on Korea/China/Japan/Phillipine martial art history. I believe much of the problem is a difference in culture. Americans in particular want "The answer" which is not always what you get in the Orient. A good example of this is found in a book entitled, "Okinawan Karate:Teachers, Styles, Secrets" by Mark Bishop. Bishop speaks about the difficulty in dealing with people who want to put a particular spin on their answers rather than simply saying they don't know the answer.

Very well said