Original Taekwondo

[KarateMomUSA]

The Oh Do Kwan didn't use the term Taekwondo when the KTA used the name Taesoodo. Therefore it wasn't being continuously used in Korea. So what if General Choi may have used it in Malaysia during his exile there. That doesn't count, anymore than GM LEE Won Kuk's time outside of Korea doesn't count (which you stated).

Yes sir we do know that the Tae Soo Do guys did not use the name TKD from 1961 till 1965. We also know that in 1965 it was Gen Choi who forced them to go back to the TKD name. We also know that this was a cause of friction between them, resulting in Gen Choi being forced out of the KTA.
I have never said anything disrespectful about GM Lee or any other person. My point about GM Lee was he was not involved in the unification efforts between 1950 & 1965, as he was not in the country. You did tell us that he returned in 1967 & then did help correct some things & make some contributions to what they were doing.
Now even though the Tae Soo Do guys were not using the name TKD in Korea from 1961, Gen Choi's followers were. As I stated previously, Gen Woo Jong Lim held a TKD tournament in 1962, which came to eventually be ITF tournament rules. He had set up a civilian school that still used the name TKD. During that time (61-65), they continued to dispatch TKD instructors around the world, not Tae Soo Do instructors.
So my point still remains, while many in Korea did not use the name TKD, Gen Choi's followers did.
As to your other question, I did answer it, but I guess since I answered your question with a question, it didn't count for you.
While I do value your great input & info provided, it is a bit sad that you have taken what appears at times to be a somewhat harsher tone.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am not sure it would be a productive argument, but it would shed some additional light on how TKD developed & branched out along different paths.
Just to note: Gen Choi did make this argument starting at least as early as 1972 & did get more vocal over time as the divisions widened & became more contentious.

1972? A bit late in the game for anyone to take him seriously on that point. By 1972, taekwondo was well in use and Choi no longer had any monopoly on the name. If he invented the name (I know that that is debated as well) and didn't want it applied to what the five original kwans were doing, then he should have never submitted it.

Yes but I am not talking about originality, but rather who originally used the name & continuously applied it to a system that they were developing.
(I know splitting hairs & some very fine hair at that, sorry)

Not splitting hairs. You're using the word incorrectly. If Chang Hon taekwondo had not been developed at the time the name was created and Choi and his followers were essentially doing whatever the Chungdokwan was doing, then that is what he applied the name to originally. Not whatever he developed later.

Thus, if Choi and his followers were practicing whatever the CDK was practicing, and Choi applied the name to what he and his followers were doing, then by extension, he applied to what the CDK was doing. Given that everyone seems to be in agreement that the original five kwans were doing variations on a theme (correct me if I am wrong), then by extension, they also get included on grounds of content. The name was submitted in 1955, at which time the Chang Hon system was not developed as a separate system at that point and the ITF wasn't around until the mid sixties.

Which would mean that CDK would be original taekwondo, not Chang Hon or ITF.

But again, unless you or anyone else in this discussion is willing to argue that what the original kwans were doing was not taekwondo, then this argument is...

...pointless.

Especially given that your usage of the word original based entirely upon Choi's usage of the name (which he may or may not have coined depending upon who you talk to) is not one that is generally accepted.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

1972? A bit late in the game for anyone to take him seriously on that point. By 1972, taekwondo was well in use and Choi no longer had any monopoly on the name.

100% correct. By 1972 he was in exile because of his political leanings & opposition to the brutality of the military dictator. He had no power & was fighting a losing battle. He then started to use TKD & his ITF as a political tool, which was unfortunate on so many levels for so many people.
This is why many did not take him seriously, especially when we know he forced them to take the name, then lied that they stole it!

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Not splitting hairs. You're using the word incorrectly. If Chang Hon taekwondo had not been developed at the time the name was created and Choi and his followers were essentially doing whatever the Chungdokwan was doing, then that is what he applied the name to originally. Not whatever he developed later.
Thus, if Choi and his followers were practicing whatever the CDK was practicing, and Choi applied the name to what he and his followers were doing, then by extension, he applied to what the CDK was doing. Given that everyone seems to be in agreement that the original five kwans were doing variations on a theme (correct me if I am wrong), then by extension, they also get included on grounds of content. The name was submitted in 1955, at which time the Chang Hon system was not developed as a separate system at that point and the ITF wasn't around until the mid sixties.
Which would mean that CDK would be original taekwondo, not Chang Hon or ITF.
But again, unless you or anyone else in this discussion is willing to argue that what the original kwans were doing was not taekwondo, then this argument is...
...pointless.
Especially given that your usage of the word original based entirely upon Choi's usage of the name (which he may or may not have coined depending upon who you talk to) is not one that is generally accepted.

I think that we may have to agree to disagree. I am simply using original as the 1st to use the name AND added the additional identifier that they used it continuously, thats all.
Now I think that what the early kwans were all doing was basically the same, more or less. It did early on resemble what their founders learned abroad, which was essentially basic karate. Over time & in different ways, this evolved.
However a lot of people would see more of a difference between ITF & Kukki TKD today, as compared to what the kwans were doing in 1955. I also think it is a fair statement to make, those same people would see less of a difference in what the kwans were doing in 1955, than that which their founders did outside of Korea during the occupation.

So the roots for both Chang Hon & Kukki TKD were common, but the paths of development different, with different results. The gradation of those differences are often in the eye of the beholder.

I think that what became TKD today, can be traced to those early kwans & even before. However the developmental paths took place along 2 different roads, the Tae Soo Do guys & the military guys. I think that is a fair statement to say that it was TKD when those paths were taken, but their roots are a shared common starting point.

A silly analogy:
Ice Cream predates an ice cream soda or an ice cream shake. One is soda based, the other is not. They both contain shared ingredients, often to different levels. They also contain ingredients in 1, that is not found in the other. So while they both came from ice cream, they are created differently.
So the history of both, will include ice cream as the main & starting ingredient, both the telling of that history will go forward separately, with the starting point, not the ice cream, but the people who put together these different special sweet treats.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That is 1 way of looking at it.
I think that they all were pretty much doing the basic karate that was brought back to Korea after & during the occupation period by 7 Koreans, with Gen Choi being 1 of the 7. He did train in karate as well. I think that while many Koreans, not limited to these 7, all had various notions or ideas & visions of how they should move forward with their Korean martial art training. So it does appear that when the name was initially submitted, it may have been as an umbrella term, even though some may have had visions of their own.
Certainly it is common sense that it would be hard enough to get someone to adopt a name for nationalist purposes, then to change what they were doing or adopt a new system. We see how numerous attempts from the 1940s to the 1960s all fell apart, often due to who would be in charge of testing & testing standards, which gets to technical training.
Dr Kim Un Yong & the Kukki TKD pioneers had a great idea. Their model was most successful.

So at the time that the name was submitted, Chang Hon did not exist and Choi was doing what everyone else in CDK was doing, all of which was retroactively called Taekwondo. Choi goes on to develop the Chang Hon system and found the ITF in 1966 and the Chang Hon system reaches its full development in 1972.

By 1972 he was in exile because of his political leanings & opposition to the brutality of the military dictator. He had no power & was fighting a losing battle. He then started to use TKD & his ITF as a political tool, which was unfortunate on so many levels for so many people.
This is why many did not take him seriously, especially when we know he forced them to take the name, then lied that they stole it!

So in 1972, Choi rebrands his Chang Hon as being the original taekwondo, using his position as head of the ITF and as one of the early figures in TKD history to lend credence to that rebranding.

Look, meaning no disrespect, you really don't have a case for Chang Hon or ITF Taekwondo being 'original taekwondo' unless you mean that it is an original system that is different from its predecessors. Kind of how the C-5 Corvette was an original design but not the original Corvette.

But that isn't what you mean because you already defined how you mean it, though your definition needs to shop for a different word. I don't know what that word would be, as the guy you say originally and continuously used the name was applying it to something that predates his system and federation, but which he applied to said system and federation years later, and I don't know of a single word that describes that.

While Chang Hon may have been a 'taekwondo original', it is misleading to call it 'original taekwondo.'

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that we may have to agree to disagree. I am simply using original as the 1st to use the name AND added the additional identifier that they used it continuously, thats all.

I am aware of that. You have explained that. The problem is that the system of taekwondo that you call 'original' was not the first to use the name because it didn't exist yet. Your usage of the word original in this context is a misapplication of the word.

Initially, you used the word without qualification, which led to Bluewaveschool's rebuttal that Chang Hon/ITF is not the original TKD. You seem a bit too educated for me to believe that you didn't think others would assume that you don't mean original to actually mean 'original.'

Your initial unqualified use of the word implies that it is the first, and again, I think that you are educated enough to know that that.

I'm willing to go with the claim that Choi coined the term (I really don't care who coined it), but just because he coined the term originally does not mean that anything that he applied it to later on was automatically the original. All that it means is that he came up with a name, submitted it for use and forced everyone else to use it (thus proclaiming all of what they were doing as taekwondo) and years later put together comprehensive Korean fighting system and applied the name to it.

Now I think that what the early kwans were all doing was basically the same, more or less. It did early on resemble what their founders learned abroad, which was essentially basic karate. Over time & in different ways, this evolved.
However a lot of people would see more of a difference between ITF & Kukki TKD today, as compared to what the kwans were doing in 1955. I also think it is a fair statement to make, those same people would see less of a difference in what the kwans were doing in 1955, than that which their founders did outside of Korea during the occupation.

Nobody disputes this, but this has nothing to do with originality. If anything, it undermines your appellation of the word to ITF taekwondo.

So the roots for both Chang Hon & Kukki TKD were common, but the paths of development different, with different results. The gradation of those differences are often in the eye of the beholder.

The difference in forms is not in the eye of the beholder. Original taekwondo used Heian forms. Kukki taekwondo uses Taegeuk forms. These forms are technically different from one another.

Sine wave is a specific method of power generation unique to the ITF and not used originally by anyone in taekwondo. This is not an 'eye of the beholder' difference.

Sport and tournament rules are different between the ITF and WTF. How is this gradation in the eye of the beholder?

I think that what became TKD today, can be traced to those early kwans & even before. However the developmental paths took place along 2 different roads, the Tae Soo Do guys & the military guys. I think that is a fair statement to say that it was TKD when those paths were taken, but their roots are a shared common starting point.

What are you saying? That taekwondo was not taekwondo until Choi went out and founded his own system? After which Kukki and CHang Hon TKD were now officially TKD, but the common root was not?

A silly analogy:
Ice Cream predates an ice cream soda or an ice cream shake. One is soda based, the other is not. They both contain shared ingredients, often to different levels. They also contain ingredients in 1, that is not found in the other. So while they both came from ice cream, they are created differently.
So the history of both, will include ice cream as the main & starting ingredient, both the telling of that history will go forward separately, with the starting point, not the ice cream, but the people who put together these different special sweet treats.

Not silly, but inapplicable, as ice cream soda isn't claiming to be original ice cream.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

As I stated previously, Gen Woo Jong Lim held a TKD tournament in 1962, which came to eventually be ITF tournament rules. He had set up a civilian school that still used the name TKD.

He did that under the Taesoodo Association and name:

Modern History: The Korea Taesoodo
Association moved its offices to the KASA building, Suite 323, on May 1, 1963, and the following was a list of KTA officials at the time:
President (Hwe Jang): CHOI Myung Shin
Vice President (Bu Hwe Jang): HYUN Jong Myun, LEE Chong Woo
Executive Director (Jun Moo E Sa): PARK Chul Hee, UHM Woon Kyu
Executive Council (Chong Moo E Sa): LEE Byung Ro
Executive Official of Game (Kyong Ki E Sa): WOO Jong Lim
Director (E Sa): LEE Yong Woo, CHOI Ki Yong, JUNG Jin Yong, LEE Kyo Yun, KIM Soon Bae, BAEK Joon Ki, LEE Young Sup, LEE Byong Keon
Inspector (Kam Sa): KIM Bong Sik, LEE Ryong Hong
Head Official (Sa Moo Jang): KIM Wan Soo

 

[puunui]

By 1972 he was in exile because of his political leanings & opposition to the brutality of the military dictator.

By 1972, General Choi left Korea voluntarily because he saw the handwriting on the wall. Dr. Un Yong KIM was in charge, they built or was building the Kukkiwon, the pioneers were creating the Taeguek poomsae to unify the kwans, the first World Taekwondo Championships were set for May 1973, which included plans to start the WTF, and the KTA started up the International Master Instructor program, which was designed for instructors who were going to teach internationally, which previously General Choi felt was "his" territory. So he left the country and left his family back, and it took a long time for them to come out because it was hard to leave Korea. As GM Cho stated, it took months or even years to leave the country. With Dr. Kim in charge, Taekwondo was set to go global. General Choi knew this and got the hell out of Dodge.

All the rest is just crap. GM LEE Chong Woo addresses this:

[Reporter’s Comment]: President Choi makes his own point that his relationship
with President Chung Hee Park became uncomfortable due to his opposition to the
revision of the constitution that would allow a third presidential term, and there was an
organized plot in the Taekwondo community that might harm him.

[Chong Woo Lee’s Response]: “That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting
around situations by cooking up different stories. He tells stories one way in one place,
and then when he is asked, 'Isn't this story different from the one you just gave few
minutes ago?' he manages to gloss over it saying, 'That one was a joke and this one is the real story.' During President Chung Hee Park's term when Hong Hi Choi was serving as
Ambassador to Malaysia, he was called home and accused of embezzlement of official
government funds. Meanwhile, Un Yong Kim, who was working for the Presidential
Security Service for the Blue House, was coming into the Taekwondo leadership, and
Choi slipped out and ran away. I can give you a lot of evidence of his lies.”

 

[puunui]

My point about GM Lee was he was not involved in the unification efforts between 1950 & 1965, as he was not in the country.

Wrong, he removed GM SON Duk Sung as Chung Do Kwan Jang and appointed GM UHM Woon Kyu in his place. That was a big move towards the unification efforts. Also, the Chung Do Kwan seniors kept in touch with GM Lee throughout the entire time that he was away, including when GM Lee moved to the United States. His influence permeates Taekwondo, in a very positive way.

 

[puunui]

Look, meaning no disrespect, you really don't have a case for Chang Hon or ITF Taekwondo being 'original taekwondo' unless you mean that it is an original system that is different from its predecessors. Kind of how the C-5 Corvette was an original design but not the original Corvette.

Mr. KarateMom really doesn't have a case for most, if not all of his arguments, mainly because it is based primarily upon the lies told by General Choi. General Choi was the most destructive person in Taekwondo. He went out of his way to create separation and division in the art, and we all have to suffer to a certain degree because of it. Look at how much suffering the topic of General Choi has caused the readers of MT.

 

[miguksaram]

I think a lot of people attach words like 'self defence', 'old school', 'classical' etc to try to explain to the general public what they do.

The overall problem with it all is that people get hung up on what is "old school" and "classical".

When does old school start? I began training in 1980. So am I old school? As far as classical is concerned I run into this argument all the time especially in Karate circles. "My sensei taught us the proper classical way of the form" According to who?

Even Funakoshi stated that what he taught was not how he learned, and what his students were teaching wasn't exactly how they learned, but there was nothing wrong with that and in the future, shotokan will not look like what he first did because people will adpat it to what works for them and that is ok.

Using the term Original TKD from either side will always be misleading because regardless of the intent of the label it still signifies that one side taught the true art and the other side did not. Like Glenn said, it is all one art. People just decided to smack a label on it and suddenly. This is just like if Funakoshi's followers say he taught original karate simply because he named it.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

So at the time that the name was submitted, Chang Hon did not exist and Choi was doing what everyone else in CDK was doing, all of which was retroactively called Taekwondo. Choi goes on to develop the Chang Hon system and found the ITF in 1966 and the Chang Hon system reaches its full development in 1972.

Gen Choi, like the others were doing basic Korean karate, brought to Korea by 7 koreans, Gen Choi being 1 of them that studied martial arts abroad. While the time 1954/5 came around there was naturally some difference in what people were doing, how they were doing it & what the emphasized. That to me is common sense. However we don't really know too much about this part of the formative years, as efforts were made to gloss over it for obvious nationalist reasons, some even label it as the disorder period. Some official accounts spent pages on what happened in Korea 2,000 years ago & only a paragraph or 2 about this all important starting point. Unfortunately this is a hand we have been dealt.
People do like to apply the name TKD retroactively to this period, but I am not sure that it can stand up to close scrutiny.
The Chang Hon system was not fully developed by 1972, but pretty much codified by then. It was however this system that was 1st developed in the ROK Army & continued outside of the military that 1st applied the name TKD to it, not retroactively, but in 1955 & continuously from that point forward. Gen Choi never adopted or accepted the name Tae Soo Do, in 1961 when it was implemented. In 1962, in Korea his followers did hold a TKD tournament, while the others did start to have Tae Soo Do accepted in the Korean National Festival. He & his followers, who were being dispatched to Vietnam & Malaysia from 1962 forward, did so under the TKD name.

So in 1972, Choi rebrands his Chang Hon as being the original taekwondo, using his position as head of the ITF and as one of the early figures in TKD history to lend credence to that rebranding.

Yes which was very divisive & hard to forgive by many TKDin. Because of his Korean politics, opposition to the military dictatorships which were very oppressive, Gen Choi used TKD & his ITF for his political agenda, much to the detriment of all TKD, including those in the ITF.

Look, meaning no disrespect, you really don't have a case for Chang Hon or ITF Taekwondo being 'original taekwondo' unless you mean that it is an original system that is different from its predecessors. Kind of how the C-5 Corvette was an original design but not the original Corvette.

Of course it is different now from its roots in the Army. All of TKD is different from where it started, no? No disrespect taken.

But that isn't what you mean because you already defined how you mean it, though your definition needs to shop for a different word. I don't know what that word would be, as the guy you say originally and continuously used the name was applying it to something that predates his system and federation, but which he applied to said system and federation years later, and I don't know of a single word that describes that.

While Chang Hon may have been a 'taekwondo original', it is misleading to call it 'original taekwondo.'

Like the trouble you may be running into on the true TKD section, I am not trying to mislead & offer a concise definition for my use of the descriptor original. I think you may be focusing on the word original as a noun. I am using the word original as an adjective:
–adjective
1. belonging or pertaining to the origin or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning: The book still has its original binding.
2. new; fresh; inventive; novel: an original way of advertising.
3. arising or proceeding independently of anything else: an original view of history.
4. capable of or given to thinking or acting in an independent, creative, or individual manner: an original thinker.
5. created, undertaken, or presented for the first time: to give the original performance of a string quartet.
6. being something from which a copy, a translation, or the like is made: The original document is in Washington.
–noun
7. a primary form or type from which varieties are derived.
8. an original work, writing, or the like, as opposed to any copy or imitation: The original of this is in the British Museum.
9. the person or thing represented by a picture, description, etc.: The original is said to have been the painter's own house.
10. a person whose ways of thinking or acting are original: In a field of brilliant technicians he is a true original.
11. Archaic . an eccentric person.
12. Archaic . a source of being; an author or originator.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I am aware of that. You have explained that. The problem is that the system of taekwondo that you call 'original' was not the first to use the name because it didn't exist yet. Your usage of the word original in this context is a misapplication of the word.
Initially, you used the word without qualification, which led to Bluewaveschool's rebuttal that Chang Hon/ITF is not the original TKD. You seem a bit too educated for me to believe that you didn't think others would assume that you don't mean original to actually mean 'original.'
Your initial unqualified use of the word implies that it is the first, and again, I think that you are educated enough to know that that.
I'm willing to go with the claim that Choi coined the term (I really don't care who coined it), but just because he coined the term originally does not mean that anything that he applied it to later on was automatically the original. All that it means is that he came up with a name, submitted it for use and forced everyone else to use it (thus proclaiming all of what they were doing as taekwondo) and years later put together comprehensive Korean fighting system and applied the name to it.

See my above post as I am not using original as a noun, but as an adjective.
Thank you for the kind assumption. I assure you that I use the term original with the name of TKD only to demonstrate who used it 1st & continuously. Nothing more. While that term, without the context can generate discussion & it has, that is a good thing, as it does allow for more exchanges of historical info.
We really would not be having this debate if:
The KTA did not change the name to TKD in 1965
or
If the KTA went back to them name Tae Soo Do that they preferred when the pushed Gen Choi out of the KTA.
But since none of that happened, we can now engage in the narrow debated about who used the name, when, who dropped the name & who never did.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The difference in forms is not in the eye of the beholder. Original taekwondo used Heian forms. Kukki taekwondo uses Taegeuk forms. These forms are technically different from one another.

I will split some more hairs here. The karate katas Heian were called Peihan/Pyongan (spelling is way off) by the original & early kwans that preceded TKD, that were the roots of TKD. Kukki TKD used the Palgwe forms before they used the taeguek Poomsae & some still use the Palgwes & Pihan katas, but maybe they are more independent or stuck in the past!

Sine wave is a specific method of power generation unique to the ITF and not used originally by anyone in taekwondo. This is not an 'eye of the beholder' difference.
Sport and tournament rules are different between the ITF and WTF. How is this gradation in the eye of the beholder?

Some people will simply see people in pajama like clothes do some type of floor routine, making little or no distinction. The same can be said for fighting in pajamas, with kicks.
However some may see the karate link in some forms greater than that of other sets & or how they are actually performed. Some will focus on the commonality while others the differences. Same with fighting, but a much different comparison. Maybe beauty was the right word, sorry.

What are you saying? That taekwondo was not taekwondo until Choi went out and founded his own system? After which Kukki and CHang Hon TKD were now officially TKD, but the common root was not?

I am not sure exactly. It does seem that it was suggested as a new term, more umbrella like, than system specific. But we do know that the different kwans did not accept it or unite, till much later. The bottom line is that he called what they were doing in the Army & what they continued outside of the Army as TKD, continuously from 1955. No one else can state that. But the others would still be Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do or Tae Soo Do.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

He did that under the Taesoodo Association and name:
Executive Official of Game (Kyong Ki E Sa): WOO Jong Lim

Yes he worked with the Tae Su Do guys, movement etc, but he held a tournament in 1962 & called it TKD.
Gen Choi & his followers used the name TKD continuously, it seemed the others did not.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

By 1972, General Choi left Korea voluntarily because he saw the handwriting on the wall. Dr. Un Yong KIM was in charge, they built or was building the Kukkiwon, the pioneers were creating the Taeguek poomsae to unify the kwans, the first World Taekwondo Championships were set for May 1973, which included plans to start the WTF, and the KTA started up the International Master Instructor program, which was designed for instructors who were going to teach internationally, which previously General Choi felt was "his" territory. So he left the country and left his family back, and it took a long time for them to come out because it was hard to leave Korea. As GM Cho stated, it took months or even years to leave the country. With Dr. Kim in charge, Taekwondo was set to go global. General Choi knew this and got the hell out of Dodge.

Yes you are right, Dr Kim was going global. They had a law passed requiring everyone to pay taxes with their dojangs & get authorization from the KKW etc. I understand that.
However Gen Choi's source of his political problems were not from TKD, but his opposition that many had in south Korea to Gen Park changing the constitution yet again & making it possible for him to run without opposition forever! Now since he was losing power & political clout since 1961/2, he did not have the resources or skills to continue his vision for his TKD. One of the ways the political opposition sought to silence him was to take away his TKD stage which already afforded him a world platform. These attempts to silence his opposition, which no doubt increased when he fled Korea, also increased, as we know from many sources both in & outside the TKD world, that the long arm of the KCIA reached around the world, especially in the Western nations, as south Korea was aligned with them & had established diplomatic relations which allowed the KCIA greater access & ease of movement.
So it is both, as both influenced the other.
You are a learned person, who appears to be very well read & highly knowledgeable. I would respectfully suggest that you refer a bit more to the context of the times TKD was developed in, as south Korea was not the country it now is (2011) that it was during the occupation, the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s & the rest of the 20th century. Civilian elected democracy did not come till the 1990s.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Wrong, he removed GM SON Duk Sung as Chung Do Kwan Jang and appointed GM UHM Woon Kyu in his place. That was a big move towards the unification efforts. Also, the Chung Do Kwan seniors kept in touch with GM Lee throughout the entire time that he was away, including when GM Lee moved to the United States. His influence permeates Taekwondo, in a very positive way.

Yes his influence does permeate TKD, no doubt about that. he was however not directly involved in the sense of being in Korea & having a seat at the table. I know his influence was great. I acknowledge that a long time ago, as I have always felt that. I even stated that I could make a case fr him being considered the founder of TKD

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Mr. KarateMom really doesn't have a case for most, if not all of his arguments, mainly because it is based primarily upon the lies told by General Choi. General Choi was the most destructive person in Taekwondo. He went out of his way to create separation and division in the art, and we all have to suffer to a certain degree because of it. Look at how much suffering the topic of General Choi has caused the readers of MT.

Because you say such things, does not take away from the influence & positive effects that Gen Choi's TKD had on countless numbers of students all around the world & still does to this day, with what he left behind.
Now I already stipulated that Gen Choi was a destructive person & caused great division in TKD. There can be real doubt about that. He did not follow what the others laid out on their path, he took another path & even fought hard against Kukki TKD inclusion in the Olympics, still another reason for Korean nationals to hate him.
But none of that takes away from the positive he did for so many, outside of the Kukki TKD way or sphere of influence.

Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc.

 

[puunui]

See my above post as I am not using original as a noun, but as an adjective.

So what. The word doesn't change meaning because it is used as a noun or adjective.

that is a good thing, as it does allow for more exchanges of historical info.

There has been no "exchange" of information. Rather, it has been me pointing out facts, and you making rambling disjointed commentary on it. That's not an exchange George.

 

[puunui]

The bottom line is that he called what they were doing in the Army & what they continued outside of the Army as TKD, continuously from 1955. No one else can state that. But the others would still be Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do or Tae Soo Do.

Wrong. Again. Maybe General Choi called what they were doing in the Army as Taekwondo, but certainly the Oh Do Kwan was not doing so, at least not during 1961-65. We already went over this. As for what General Choi was doing in Malaysia, that doesn't count either, because he, like GM LEE Won Kuk, was outside of Korea and therefore he didn't count. In fact, General Choi was so out of the loop he made this comment when he returned: "When I was in Malaysia, I completed the Tul (forms), which are the most important part of Taekwondo. However, when I came back to Korea, there was no
Taekwondo, but instead there was Taesoodo." General Choi was so out of the loop that he didn't even know they changed the name, which may explain why he may have thought the name was being used continuously, which it wasn't.