Original Taekwondo

[puunui]

Yes he worked with the Tae Su Do guys, movement etc, but he held a tournament in 1962 & called it TKD. Gen Choi & his followers used the name TKD continuously, it seemed the others did not.

George, even if GM WOO Jong Lim did throw a tournament in 1962, it is highly doubtful that he would be using the name Taekwondo since the KTA was going with the name Taesoodo and the Oh Do Kwan was using that name as well. Why would they make him Chairman of the Tournament Committee if he were out there rebelling against an organization whose President was the Chairman of the ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff, his boss since he was in the ROK Army? Your claim, or General Choi's claim, doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with the facts.

And he wasn't the only one of General Choi's "followers" who went the Taesoodo route and ended up with positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association: GM NAM Tae Hi, GM HYUN Jong Myung, GM BAEK Joon Ki, GM KIM Bong Sik, GM CHA Soo Young, GM KO Jae Chun, and other Oh Do Kwan members also got positions. And why not, since the President of the KTA at the time was a General in the ROK Army.

 

[puunui]

Yes you are right, Dr Kim was going global. They had a law passed requiring everyone to pay taxes with their dojangs & get authorization from the KKW etc. I understand that.

Mr. Vitale, this is a perfect example of disjointed thinking. What does taxes paid to the Korean government have to do with Dr. Kim going global?

However Gen Choi's source of his political problems were not from TKD, but his opposition that many had in south Korea to Gen Park changing the constitution yet again & making it possible for him to run without opposition forever! Now since he was losing power & political clout since 1961/2, he did not have the resources or skills to continue his vision for his TKD. One of the ways the political opposition sought to silence him was to take away his TKD stage which already afforded him a world platform. These attempts to silence his opposition, which no doubt increased when he fled Korea, also increased, as we know from many sources both in & outside the TKD world, that the long arm of the KCIA reached around the world, especially in the Western nations, as south Korea was aligned with them & had established diplomatic relations which allowed the KCIA greater access & ease of movement.

You completely ignore this part of my post, which I will post again:

[Reporter’s Comment]: President Choi makes his own point that his relationship
with President Chung Hee Park became uncomfortable due to his opposition to the
revision of the constitution that would allow a third presidential term, and there was an
organized plot in the Taekwondo community that might harm him.

[Chong Woo Lee’s Response]: “That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting
around situations by cooking up different stories. He tells stories one way in one place,
and then when he is asked, 'Isn't this story different from the one you just gave few
minutes ago?' he manages to gloss over it saying, 'That one was a joke and this one is
the real story.' During President Chung Hee Park's term when Hong Hi Choi was serving as
Ambassador to Malaysia, he was called home and accused of embezzlement of official
government funds. Meanwhile, Un Yong Kim, who was working for the Presidential
Security Service for the Blue House, was coming into the Taekwondo leadership, and
Choi slipped out and ran away. I can give you a lot of evidence of his lies.”

Mr. Vitale, you have already stated your respect for GM LEE Chong Woo. So why would you ignore his words on this particular point?

You are a learned person, who appears to be very well read & highly knowledgeable. I would respectfully suggest that you refer a bit more to the context of the times TKD was developed in, as south Korea was not the country it now is (2011) that it was during the occupation, the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s & the rest of the 20th century. Civilian elected democracy did not come till the 1990s.

George, please read GM Lee's statement above. He directly addresses this particular claim of General Choi, that he was run out because he was opposed to President Park and his "nasty Korean politics". GM Lee states that General Choi lied about that, that he lied about a lot of things. What part of "“That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting around situations by cooking up different stories." don't you understand?

 

[puunui]

Because you say such things, does not take away from the influence & positive effects that Gen Choi's TKD had on countless numbers of students all around the world & still does to this day, with what he left behind.

He left behind a whole bunch of students and "followers" who now find themselves cut off from the majority of Taekwondoin worldwide, because they have different certification, wear different uniforms, practice different forms, and have a different competition sparring format. Maybe there are those who are happy with that. But I know a whole bunch of other taekwondoin who are not.

Now I already stipulated that Gen Choi was a destructive person & caused great division in TKD. There can be real doubt about that. He did not follow what the others laid out on their path, he took another path & even fought hard against Kukki TKD inclusion in the Olympics, still another reason for Korean nationals to hate him. But none of that takes away from the positive he did for so many, outside of the Kukki TKD way or sphere of influence.

Yes it does negate it because his overall participation was grossly negative.

Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc.

General Choi is not Robert E. Lee, he is Benedict Arnold. Compare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold

 

[KarateMomUSA]

So what. The word doesn't change meaning because it is used as a noun or adjective.

Sorry but that is not what the dictionary shows.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Wrong. Again. Maybe General Choi called what they were doing in the Army as Taekwondo, but certainly the Oh Do Kwan was not doing so, at least not during 1961-65. We already went over this. As for what General Choi was doing in Malaysia, that doesn't count either, because he, like GM LEE Won Kuk, was outside of Korea and therefore he didn't count. In fact, General Choi was so out of the loop he made this comment when he returned: "When I was in Malaysia, I completed the Tul (forms), which are the most important part of Taekwondo. However, when I came back to Korea, there was no
Taekwondo, but instead there was Taesoodo." General Choi was so out of the loop that he didn't even know they changed the name, which may explain why he may have thought the name was being used continuously, which it wasn't.

No you denied it again, even though there were Gen Choi's followers still doing TKD & still using it in Korea. There was a civilian ODK dojang, there was a TKD championship in 1962, they did not call it Tae Soo Do. Choi Chang Keun won the heavy weight division & it contained the several aspects of a TKD tournament that would eventually become the model for the ITF. It was set up by Kim Jong Chan & Woo Jong Lim. Additionally Choi & Rhee Ki Ha left Korea as KD instructors as their occupation in 1964, the 1st time ever it was listed as so. We also know that Nam Tae Hi left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of TKD instructors in 1962. Gen Choi also flew there from Malaysia to give them the manuscripts of his new tuls & go over them with the TKD instructors that were in Vietnam. This was also before he returned home to Korea in 1964. They also, under Gen Choi's leadership set up TKD organizations in both Malaysia & Singapore in 1963.
So while Gen Choi was forced out of the military by the new dictator, he continued TKD in Malaysia, even writing the 1st English book on TKD. While it was the nasty Korean politics that forced both Gen Choi & GM Lee out of their country, Gen Choi was most definitely still doing TKD while abroad. While I know that you said GM Lee was still in contact with his students, that may have been Tang Soo Do or Tae Soo Do, as it was not TKD prior to 1965. Only Gen Choi & his guys were still using the name TKD that the others did not want to adopt & instead went with Tae Soo Do.
It appears what you wrote only strengthens that established point.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

George, even if GM WOO Jong Lim did throw a tournament in 1962, it is highly doubtful that he would be using the name Taekwondo since the KTA was going with the name Taesoodo and the Oh Do Kwan was using that name as well. Why would they make him Chairman of the Tournament Committee if he were out there rebelling against an organization whose President was the Chairman of the ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff, his boss since he was in the ROK Army? Your claim, or General Choi's claim, doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with the facts.

And he wasn't the only one of General Choi's "followers" who went the Taesoodo route and ended up with positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association: GM NAM Tae Hi, GM HYUN Jong Myung, GM BAEK Joon Ki, GM KIM Bong Sik, GM CHA Soo Young, GM KO Jae Chun, and other Oh Do Kwan members also got positions. And why not, since the President of the KTA at the time was a General in the ROK Army.

No the tournament was TKD & not all of his followers used the Tae Soo Do name & Gen Choi never did as well. Not everyone in Korea used the Tae Soo Do name.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

GM Lee states that General Choi lied about that, that he lied about a lot of things. What part of "“That is a lie. That guy is famous for getting around situations by cooking up different stories." don't you understand?

Yes I while GM Lee does deserve credit & thanks for all that he did & he may have been the most important Kukki TKD martial artist, he was also someone who had hard feelings for Gen Choi because of the bad blood between them. One must always evaluate relationships between people as part of vetting the info that they provide. Now GM Lee said Gen Choi lied about the calligraphy that he obtained from President Rhee. But he didn't, as that was evidenced in Gen Choi's 1959 book, the 1st ever on TKD. The calligraphy is right there. Maybe GM Lee did not realize that. GM Lee also says Gen Choi embezzled money. But I have never read that anywhere before, did you? Where were the charges? Subsequent ambassador & others have said it was not true. GM Lee also said he lied about why he was forced to exile himself in 1972, the height of the brutality of the Park dictatorship. I think you may have to also ask other sources like KCIA, American intelligence, other govt officials & non TKD sources, especially those that have such bitter feelings & poor or no realtionship.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Now I already stipulated that Gen Choi was a destructive person & caused great division in TKD. There can be real doubt about that. He did not follow what the others laid out on their path, he took another path & even fought hard against Kukki TKD inclusion in the Olympics, still another reason for Korean nationals to hate him. But none of that takes away from the positive he did for so many, outside of the Kukki TKD way or sphere of influence.

Yes it does negate it because his overall participation was grossly negative.

Well I guess this is another area where we will have to agree to disagree. I also respectfully suggest that your animosity towards a man apparently does not allow you much latitude in your examination of certain facts. I am not sure that unification or working closer together is facilitated with a base of harsh feelings. It does not fit well into the spirit of the arts.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc.

General Choi is not Robert E. Lee

Please do not twist my words. I never said that Gen Choi was Gen Lee. I simply said that many can not forgive him for fighting for what many thought was an unjust cause. But that did not take away from his many accomplishments as a shrew military tactician & beloved leader of soldiers & others.
So people can hate Gen Choi & many may never forgive him for his anti-nationalist activity, but that does not take away from his long list of accomplishments, even if you don't agree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry but that is not what the dictionary shows.

Actually, this:

o·rig·i·nal(

-r

j

-n

l)
adj.
1. Preceding all others in time; first.
2. a. Not derived from something else; fresh and unusual: an original play, not an adaptation.
b. Showing a marked departure from previous practice; new: a truly original approach. See Synonyms at new.

3. Productive of new things or new ideas; inventive: an original mind.
4. Being the source from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is made.

n.
1. A first form from which other forms are made or developed: Later models of the car retained many features of the original.
2. a. An authentic work of art: bought an original, not a print.
b. Work that has been composed firsthand: kept the original but sent a photocopy to his publisher.

3. A person who is appealingly odd or curious; a character.
4. Archaic The source from which something arises; an originator.

...is what the dictionary shows. The way that you are using the word is not correct usage.

The way that you used the word before qualifying your meaning implied the adjective, definition 1, or noun definition 1 or 4.

Your qualified usage matches nothing on the list. Both the adjective definition 3 or noun definition 2 would be applicable, as his Chang Hon system was 'original' in that regard, but you made it clear that that is not what you meant.

Again, whenever someone states, without qualification, that something the original, it implies definition 1 of either the adjective or the noun.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Many say that Robert E Lee was 1 of America's greatest military generals. Many say he fought on the wrong side of their Civil War & can never be forgiven for fighting to preserve the confederates cause, namely slavery. But that does not take away the fact that he was a great general, proven in part on how he was able to prolong their cause, despite have less supplies, money & soldiers, etc.

Please do not twist my words. I never said that Gen Choi was Gen Lee. I simply said that many can not forgive him for fighting for what many thought was an unjust cause. But that did not take away from his many accomplishments as a shrew military tactician & beloved leader of soldiers & others.
So people can hate Gen Choi & many may never forgive him for his anti-nationalist activity, but that does not take away from his long list of accomplishments, even if you don't agree.

In the context of this dicussion, the General's many accomplishments are irrelevent, so please stop bringing them up in every single thread that you post on.

General Choi's system of taekwondo may be an original taekwondo, or a taekwondo original, but it is not the original taekwondo, either chronologically or creatively.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

In the context of this dicussion, the General's many accomplishments are irrelevent, so please stop bringing them up in every single thread that you post on.

Sorry I didn't think I did in every thread.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Actually, this:

...is what the dictionary shows. The way that you are using the word is not correct usage.

The way that you used the word before qualifying your meaning implied the adjective, definition 1, or noun definition 1 or 4.

Your qualified usage matches nothing on the list. Both the adjective definition 3 or noun definition 2 would be applicable, as his Chang Hon system was 'original' in that regard, but you made it clear that that is not what you meant.

Again, whenever someone states, without qualification, that something the original, it implies definition 1 of either the adjective or the noun.

Daniel

Yes I would have went with Adj 1, but you larger point is much better. I guess this usage is like the use of true in another thread. I think I will just say 1st to use it & continuously use it, applying it to the system that they were developing away from their roots.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes I would have went with Adj 1, but you larger point is much better. I guess this usage is like the use of true in another thread. I think I will just say 1st to use it & continuously use it, applying it to the system that they were developing away from their roots.

Okay, but adjective number one does not apply to ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo because it does not preceed all the rest. It came out of what the original five kwans were doing, all of whom were collectively taekwondo. The label was applied retroactively, thanks in part to Choi. Choi applied the label to the system that he developed, but that his system is still not the original system or the first system, so adjective 1 is inapplicable.

If anything, adjective 2B might apply: a marked departure from what was done before: new forms, new method of power generation, etc.

But first would not apply, as Chang Hon TKD and the ITF didn't exist at the time Choi began using the term. Not to mention that he was not the only one to use it. Nor would temorary cessation of its use by others change that fact.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

No you denied it again, even though there were Gen Choi's followers still doing TKD & still using it in Korea. There was a civilian ODK dojang, there was a TKD championship in 1962, they did not call it Tae Soo Do.

Ok, so now you are relying on GM CK Choi's book for your arguments. According to his book, there is a photo which shows "Instructor Woo Jong Lim opened the first civilian Tae Kwon Do [Oh Do Kwan] school in Won Ju City, Korea." But the date on the photo is 1960, which was before the Taesoodo name was created. There is also also a photo of the first Oh Do Kwan championships in 1962, with word written with a sharpie in english. But the photo is cut off on the bottom, so you cannot see the rest of the writing. But George, even assuming all of that is true, GM Woo was KTA tournament committee chair in 1963, which means he wasn't using the name Taekwondo continuously. I should also mention that I looked GM Woo's name in the Kukkiwon promotion records and he is listed as a Kukkiwon 8th Dan.

Choi Chang Keun won the heavy weight division & it contained the several aspects of a TKD tournament that would eventually become the model for the ITF. It was set up by Kim Jong Chan & Woo Jong Lim.

GM CK Choi's book also says that, but it also shows his Taesoodo certificate from the 1963 KTA Championships. He also went on exchanges to Japan as part of the Taesoodo group. So that means he and his school was a part of Taesoodo, which means he wasn't using the name Taekwondo continuously either.

Additionally Choi & Rhee Ki Ha left Korea as KD instructors as their occupation in 1964, the 1st time ever it was listed as so.

They left from Korea, which means that they were using the name Taesoodo when they left, which means they weren't using the name continuously either.

We also know that Nam Tae Hi left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of TKD instructors in 1962.

Wrong, GM NAM Tae Hi was part of the Taesoodo group in 1962, so if he "left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of ... instructors in 1962" it was with a batch of Taesoodo instructors.

Gen Choi also flew there from Malaysia to give them the manuscripts of his new tuls & go over them with the TKD instructors that were in Vietnam. This was also before he returned home to Korea in 1964.

Mr. Vitale, why would the ambassador to Malaysia fly to Vietnam? If he used government monies for this trip, which obviously was personal business, then that could be part of the allegations of embezzlement against him. As for how GM Nam got the "manuscripts" from General Choi, GM Weiss told us that GM Nam told him that they got it over the mimeograph machine, not in person. General Choi basically faxed it over to GM Nam and GM Nam worked out the forms. The actor director thing.

They also, under Gen Choi's leadership set up TKD organizations in both Malaysia & Singapore in 1963.

Using who, instructors who lived in Korea and were part of the KTA, and Taesoodo Oh Do Kwan?

So while Gen Choi was forced out of the military by the new dictator, he continued TKD in Malaysia, even writing the 1st English book on TKD. While it was the nasty Korean politics that forced both Gen Choi & GM Lee out of their country, Gen Choi was most definitely still doing TKD while abroad.

So what, the point you made was that GM LEE Won Kuk was out of the country, and therefore out of the loop. And he was out of the loop because even General Choi is quoted that he was surprised there was no Taekwondo when he returned, only Taesoodo.

While I know that you said GM Lee was still in contact with his students, that may have been Tang Soo Do or Tae Soo Do, as it was not TKD prior to 1965. Only Gen Choi & his guys were still using the name TKD that the others did not want to adopt & instead went with Tae Soo Do.

Again, no they weren't using it. In fact, all of the so called "followers of General Choi" for the most part had positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association, including all the people you mention in the post I am responding to. They were NOT using the name Taekwondo continuously, and neither was General Choi for that matter, a point which I will get to in a minute.

It appears what you wrote only strengthens that established point.

The facts prove otherwise. But I have no doubt in my mind you still believe what you believe.

 

[puunui]

No the tournament was TKD & not all of his followers used the Tae Soo Do name & Gen Choi never did as well. Not everyone in Korea used the Tae Soo Do name.

Yeah Mr. Vitale, not everyone, just the following Oh Do Kwan members who had positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association -- GM NAM Tae Hi, GM HYUN Jong Myung, GM BAEK Joon Ki, GM KIM Bong Sik, GM CHA Soo Young, GM KO Jae Chun, and other Oh Do Kwan members also got positions. And why not, since the President of the KTA at the time was a General in the ROK Army.

 

[puunui]

I also respectfully suggest that your animosity towards a man apparently does not allow you much latitude in your examination of certain facts.

George, I would consider any facts that you presented, certain or otherwise. The problem is you don't present any facts. You did cite to GM CK Choi's book, but that didn't really help you.

I am not sure that unification or working closer together is facilitated with a base of harsh feelings. It does not fit well into the spirit of the arts.

Mr. Vitale, misrepresenting one's self as a person of the opposite sex who is involved in a different martial art does not fit well into the spirit of the arts. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[puunui]

Sorry I didn't think I did in every thread.

You have. And not only General Choi's accomplishments, but you also mention 7 koreans, 6 kwans, nasty korean politics, the idea that we should recognize General Choi, etc.

 

[puunui]

Please do not twist my words. I never said that Gen Choi was Gen Lee.

George, no one is twisting anything, except you. Why mention Robert E. Lee if you didn't want to compare General Choi to him?

I simply said that many can not forgive him for fighting for what many thought was an unjust cause. But that did not take away from his many accomplishments as a shrew military tactician & beloved leader of soldiers & others.
So people can hate Gen Choi & many may never forgive him for his anti-nationalist activity, but that does not take away from his long list of accomplishments, even if you don't agree.

Mr. Vitale, do you feel the same way about Benedict Arnold?

 

[puunui]

By the way, I forgot to mention that General Choi also did not continuously use the term Taekwondo. He didn't use it, for example, when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association.