Original Taekwondo

[miguksaram]

No the tournament was TKD & not all of his followers used the Tae Soo Do name & Gen Choi never did as well. Not everyone in Korea used the Tae Soo Do name.

Or was the tournament called the Oh Do Kwon Championships? Later renamed to TKD Championships.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry I didn't think I did in every thread.

Pretty much. The subject is fairly thematic in your posts. Though I don't agree with your perspective in this regard, it doesn't bother me one way or the other.

The problem with making the issue of credit a part of every discussion is that it tends to make every thread that you post in take essentially the same general path. One or two threads debating the subject is fine, but the only people that seem to have enough interest to discuss it thread after thread are Glenn and yourself. In one or two threads, the rest of us could simply leave you two to your debate and only chime in when we have something to offer. But when it permeates the entire board, it becomes problematic.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

The problem with making the issue of credit a part of every discussion is that it tends to make every thread that you post in take essentially the same general path.

It's like Mr. Vitale can only speak about one subject area, giving credit to General Choi. Other ITF members on MT are able to speak about different subjects, but not him.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

GM CK Choi's book also says that, but it also shows his Taesoodo certificate from the 1963 KTA Championships. He also went on exchanges to Japan as part of the Taesoodo group. So that means he and his school was a part of Taesoodo, which means he wasn't using the name Taekwondo continuously either.

I actually think that he says that he was left off that team that went to Japan, as they were Tae Soo Do & he was TKD.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

They left from Korea, which means that they were using the name Taesoodo when they left, which means they weren't using the name continuously either.

No they were not. They were TKD & were actually the 1st 2 TKD instructors to leave Korea as such. It was recorded as TKD in the paperwork when they were approved to travel.

Wrong, GM NAM Tae Hi was part of the Taesoodo group in 1962, so if he "left for Vietnam with the 1st batch of ... instructors in 1962" it was with a batch of Taesoodo instructors.

Even the Modern History says TKD instructors. Or is that another translation error?

Mr. Vitale, why would the ambassador to Malaysia fly to Vietnam? If he used government monies for this trip, which obviously was personal business, then that could be part of the allegations of embezzlement against him. As for how GM Nam got the "manuscripts" from General Choi, GM Weiss told us that GM Nam told him that they got it over the mimeograph machine, not in person. General Choi basically faxed it over to GM Nam and GM Nam worked out the forms. The actor director thing.

Maybe that is why we never heard of this from anyone, except GM Lee Chong Woo, who knows, but he did go to Vietnam, but GM Nam was no longer there. He left & was replaced. So while Gen choi may have transmitted papers to him while he was there, Gen Choi went there himself after GM Nam left.

Again, no they weren't using it. In fact, all of the so called "followers of General Choi" for the most part had positions in the Korea Taesoodo Association, including all the people you mention in the post I am responding to. They were NOT using the name Taekwondo continuously, and neither was General Choi for that matter, a point which I will get to in a minute.

Well it seems that you are making an argument that Gen Choi it was more limited to Gen Choi. What will come next, that as a result of that, Gen Choi should be called the father of TKD, as he never abandoned his name?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

So what, the point you made was that GM LEE Won Kuk was out of the country, and therefore out of the loop. And he was out of the loop because even General Choi is quoted that he was surprised there was no Taekwondo when he returned, only Taesoodo.
The facts prove otherwise. But I have no doubt in my mind you still believe what you believe.

No Gen Choi's situation was very different than GM Lee's. While it was true that Korean politics played a part in both of them leaving Korea, Gen Choi was assigned as the 1st Korean Ambassador to Malaysia. As such, he was living in & working at the Korean Embassy, which is officially part of Korea & comes under Korea's sovereignty. Koreans know this, as those that escape to the north seek refuge at the ROK Embassy & other like minded Embassies in China that will allow them refugee status & help them to escape. China knows this & this is why their guards try to prevent that from barging in. So Gen Choi never technically left Korea & he never abandoned the name TKD, nor did he ever switch to tae soo do.
It seems that you just do not want to acknowledge what others were doing, as they were not doing it with or under the KKW & unification efforts. While this may be a terrible thing, even unforgivable, it simply does not take into account all the millions that trained under the TKD name & what they were doing & have been doing for a long time. That is fine, but it it not a view shared by all. It is a narrower viewpoint of the TKD world. So which is it, is TKD only what KKW TKD is? You also seem to say that all are TKD. But then I guess if all are TKD, which many would agree, then what they have all been doing is not TKD, which not all would agree with.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

By the way, I forgot to mention that General Choi also did not continuously use the term Taekwondo. He didn't use it, for example, when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association.

No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965.
The more you keep writing, the more you, the more it seems you make the case that he should be called the father of TKD or at least the father of the TKD name, as he never abandoned the child he fathered or named!

 

[puunui]

No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965.

All of that, and the point (which you ignore) still remains: General Choi did not use the term Taekwon-Do while he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. Even he used the term Taesoodo, while he was functioning at Korea Taesoodo Association president.

The more you keep writing, the more you, the more it seems you make the case that he should be called the father of TKD or at least the father of the TKD name, as he never abandoned the child he fathered or named!

If you say so. And again, he didn't claim that he created the name in his 1965 book, all he said was that he submitted the name.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
"No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965."

All of that, and the point (which you ignore) still remains: General Choi did not use the term Taekwon-Do while he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. Even he used the term Taesoodo, while he was functioning at Korea Taesoodo Association president.

This is weak at best, don't you think?
All the while as President of this KtsdA, he fought to change the name to TKD, which was a big reason why the Tae Soo Do guys forced him out!
During this time, he was still teaching TKD, putting together the 1st English book on TKD & getting the plans together for the Kukki TKD Goodwill world tour, all during 1965 & his tenure as the KTA leader.
You just seem to be narrowing the list down, but no matter how much you try to narrow it down, right there, no matter what, Gen Choi was & he was there, using the name TKD from 1954/5 forward, continuously & without a doubt, any doubt!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
"No he was elected as 3rd president & worked to have them change the name to TKD. He did so & did it in such a way that even the Modern History & you say wanted them to push him out, because of his dictatorial, authoritarian ways. While he serves as president, he never abandoned the TKD name, never. In fact he was busy rounding up support for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & was finishing the 1st English book ever written on Taekwon-Do, which also came out in 1965."
This is weak at best, don't you think?
All the while as President of this KtsdA, he fought to change the name to TKD, which was a big reason why the Tae Soo Do guys forced him out!
During this time, he was still teaching TKD, putting together the 1st English book on TKD & getting the plans together for the Kukki TKD Goodwill world tour, all during 1965 & his tenure as the KTA leader.
You just seem to be narrowing the list down, but no matter how much you try to narrow it down, right there, no matter what, Gen Choi was & he was there, using the name TKD from 1954/5 forward, continuously & without a doubt, any doubt!

Meaning no disrespect, but so what? That doesn't change the fact that ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo is not the original taekwondo. Why are you still arguing about the usage of the name as a basis for this? Whether or not Choi used the name continuously is actually another topic, though I consider it to be one of neglegible importance.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

This is weak at best, don't you think?

It is your weak point that General Choi used the name continuously, which isn't true because again, he didn't use it when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. The fact that General Choi was President of the Taesoodo Association really is not in dispute. Or is this one of those believe/know situations?

All the while as President of this KtsdA, he fought to change the name to TKD, which was a big reason why the Tae Soo Do guys forced him out!

That's irrelevant to the point that he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association and used the name Taesoodo.

During this time, he was still teaching TKD, putting together the 1st English book on TKD & getting the plans together for the Kukki TKD Goodwill world tour, all during 1965 & his tenure as the KTA leader.
You just seem to be narrowing the list down, but no matter how much you try to narrow it down, right there, no matter what, Gen Choi was & he was there, using the name TKD from 1954/5 forward, continuously & without a doubt, any doubt!

According to General Choi's autobiography, both the english book and tour was done after August 1965, when the name was changed. And both the book and tour were self serving, because General Choi knew that they wanted him out, so he was attempting to secure his niche internationally with that book and tour, a niche which was being taken away from him in 1971-73 when Dr. Kim arrived on the scene.

 

[chrispillertkd]

It is your weak point that General Choi used the name continuously, which isn't true because again, he didn't use it when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. The fact that General Choi was President of the Taesoodo Association really is not in dispute. Or is this one of those believe/know situations?

Gen. Choi never used the term Taekwon-Do during that time period?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by puunui
Mr. Vitale, why would the ambassador to Malaysia fly to Vietnam? If he used government monies for this trip, which obviously was personal business, then that could be part of the allegations of embezzlement against him. As for how GM Nam got the "manuscripts" from General Choi, GM Weiss told us that GM Nam told him that they got it over the mimeograph machine, not in person. General Choi basically faxed it over to GM Nam and GM Nam worked out the forms. The actor director thing.

If the above refers to me:

A. I am not a GM
B. I do not recall any such info let alone having cnveyed any such info to anyone.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Meaning no disrespect, but so what? That doesn't change the fact that ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo is not the original taekwondo. Why are you still arguing about the usage of the name as a basis for this? Whether or not Choi used the name continuously is actually another topic, though I consider it to be one of neglegible importance.

No disrespect taken, but I do think that you are mixing some things up here. I did already state that I was not using the name original in that context. I further clarified that in previous posts & offered additional qualification as to my use. I then agreed that I would drop that usage as you had implied. So this is no longer the case here. Puunui is stating emphatically that Gen Choi did not use the name continuously & now moves to offer as evidence the fact that Gen Choi did not use the name TKD when he was elected as 3rd President of the KtsdA.
This is where the debate has evolved to, negligible as it may seem to some.
So my counter to his post, even if it is not important, is that while it was indeed factual that Gen Choi was elected President of the Tae Soo Do group, he:
1) worked hard to have the name changed to TKD
2) he was successful in having it changed to TKD
3) the fact that he worked & pushed so hard to have it changed to TKD & was successful was used as a major reason why he was then pushed out of the KtkdA that he in effect named, because of his authoritarian & dictatorial ways
4) this was also a source (changing the name to TKD) of the some of the hatred by some of the others towards Gen Choi
5) all throughout this time, he was writing the 1st English book on TKD, to do so, that takes much time, work & effort to lay out pages & type set, which never even once applied the name Tae Soo Do to the printing press, in fact in those days it took so long to print a book & gen Choi & his team worked long & hard on it, not even being able to included more of his patterns
6) at the same time, Gen Choi & his team were also busy planning a Kukki TKD Goodwill tour around the world, that was sponsored by the Korean govt, it was never a Tae Soo Do proposed tour, as it was Gen Choi's support team that set it up & they never did so as Tae Soo Do, as they always used TKD

So at best, while Gen Choi may have been the president of the Tae Soo Do group, he was continuously using the TKD name.
Most people utilize some form of footwear. Lets look at of the major groups, shoes & sneakers. Most people wear some sort of stocking or socks on their feet before they put on the footwear. I would say that Gen Choi always wore his TKD socks, even though occasionally he had to wear Tae Soo Do shoes in his official capacity as their elected President, while he fought hard to get them to adopt the name TKD, that they previously rejected, some on more than 1 occasion.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It is your weak point that General Choi used the name continuously, which isn't true because again, he didn't use it when he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association. The fact that General Choi was President of the Taesoodo Association really is not in dispute. Or is this one of those believe/know situations?
That's irrelevant to the point that he was President of the Korea Taesoodo Association and used the name Taesoodo.
According to General Choi's autobiography, both the english book and tour was done after August 1965, when the name was changed. And both the book and tour were self serving, because General Choi knew that they wanted him out, so he was attempting to secure his niche internationally with that book and tour, a niche which was being taken away from him in 1971-73 when Dr. Kim arrived on the scene.

Self serving or not, I am sure that in 1965, Dr Kim's name was not in the TKD or Tae Soo Do scene. Self serving or not, it is all direct proof that Gen Choi used the name TKD continuously, even as President of the Tae Soo Do group. Please see my above post.
The fact that Gen Choi was the duly elected President of the Tae Soo Do group, does not negate his constant use of the name TKD. In fact, a major reason why he was pushed out by the Tae Soo Do guys was for his tireless insistence that they use the name TKD that he used from 1954/5 forward.
How can you not see this?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No disrespect taken, but I do think that you are mixing some things up here. I did already state that I was not using the name original in that context. I further clarified that in previous posts & offered additional qualification as to my use. I then agreed that I would drop that usage as you had implied.

Fair enough.

So this is no longer the case here. Puunui is stating emphatically that Gen Choi did not use the name continuously & now moves to offer as evidence the fact that Gen Choi did not use the name TKD when he was elected as 3rd President of the KtsdA.
This is where the debate has evolved to, negligible as it may seem to some.
So my counter to his post, even if it is not important, is that while it was indeed factual that Gen Choi was elected President of the Tae Soo Do group, he:
1) worked hard to have the name changed to TKD
2) he was successful in having it changed to TKD
3) the fact that he worked & pushed so hard to have it changed to TKD & was successful was used as a major reason why he was then pushed out of the KtkdA that he in effect named, because of his authoritarian & dictatorial ways
4) this was also a source (changing the name to TKD) of the some of the hatred by some of the others towards Gen Choi
5) all throughout this time, he was writing the 1st English book on TKD, to do so, that takes much time, work & effort to lay out pages & type set, which never even once applied the name Tae Soo Do to the printing press, in fact in those days it took so long to print a book & gen Choi & his team worked long & hard on it, not even being able to included more of his patterns
6) at the same time, Gen Choi & his team were also busy planning a Kukki TKD Goodwill tour around the world, that was sponsored by the Korean govt, it was never a Tae Soo Do proposed tour, as it was Gen Choi's support team that set it up & they never did so as Tae Soo Do, as they always used TKD

So at best, while Gen Choi may have been the president of the Tae Soo Do group, he was continuously using the TKD name.
Most people utilize some form of footwear. Lets look at of the major groups, shoes & sneakers. Most people wear some sort of stocking or socks on their feet before they put on the footwear. I would say that Gen Choi always wore his TKD socks, even though occasionally he had to wear Tae Soo Do shoes in his official capacity as their elected President, while he fought hard to get them to adopt the name TKD, that they previously rejected, some on more than 1 occasion.

Okay, so if you are not calling it original taekwondo anymore, then the argument over continual usage of the name by the General is moot.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Okay, so if you are not calling it original taekwondo anymore, then the argument over continual usage of the name by the General is moot.

In those terms yes, it is moot.
The debate continues as some do not agree that it was used continuously by Gen Choi. So the back & forth is now limited to points brought up, which ironically point to Gen Choi's continuous use.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So Glenn,

Are you saying that KaratemomUSA is actually this gent?

http://www.lacancha.com/georgevitale.html

Sheesh. This site should do what E-Budo does; require members to either post under their real name or to put their real name in their signature.

Daniel

MartialTalk requires that a full name be submitted at registration.
This was done. A name.
It passed our review.
If this was really a concern, someone should have reported it and we would have handled it quicker.

As to E-Budo, and others real name policies....tell me, what ID do they check to confirm someone is who they say they are? None. With out an ID check, any real name policy is toothless.

And an ID is what "KarateMomUSA" will have to provide us in order to reactivate that account.

Yours,
Robin Locksley

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As to E-Budo, and others real name policies....tell me, what ID do they check to confirm someone is who they say they are? None. With out an ID check, any real name policy is toothless.

I was being facitious with that comment. I really don't care what name people choose to post under. I really don't even care if Karatemom is really a dad. Or just a dude. Though it does make me want to turn on some Aerosmith and put on Rocky Horry Picture Show.

Mervin Rottingham