OP
GouRonin
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #61
Although I myself pic this up I do it for more information reasosns as the magazine itself is not highly respected anymore. It's very political and advertisment oriented.
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #62
You ain't kiddin' Brother...I buy it when something catches my eye. Otherwise, I already have over one hundred of them telling me how effective TKD is against knives.
Regardless, Professor Presas was recognized by Black Belt and he is in The Hall of Fame and that means more than anything else.
OP
no fefe
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #63
the magazine Full Contact!
Later,
RK
Later,
RK
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #64
Yes, I agree. In most of the martial arts magazines nowadays there seems to be a very high correlation between advertisers and interviewees. They're also easily blown toward the latest fad. I flip through them at the bookstore but rarely purchase one anymore.
That's great. I wasn't aware that Mr. Worden had a radio show--does he still do it? When is this tape from?
I'm not sure if this conflicts with what Mr. Hartman has said about there being six datus or not--it depends on when the interview took place I suppose. Though I believe that Mr. Jornales was made a datu before Messrs. Hoffman and Knuttel; could this be the revoked title you hinted at earlier?
Thanks for finding the answer to this! I take this as Lakan Anim (one might argue that that's 7th degree because there is a Lakan rank). He must have been made a datu while a fifth degree or so, then, since I believe it's been said that he was awarded the datu title circa 1988.
I think I know what you mean--that the Americans were appreciative of the FMA but the Filipinos didn't always seem to appreciate what a cultural gift they had to give. I know he wanted more Filipinos active in the FMA--he devoted much effort to this before he left the Philippines, after all.
Sounds interesting. I will be curious to hear what organization, if any, Mr. Worden supports: IMAF under Mr. Delaney, IMAF, Inc. under Dr. Schea, or MARPPIO under Dr. Presas (or other). I might take your post to suggest that he favors MARPPIO over the "official" co-successors and co-grandmasters. Do you know if he has made a statement about this?
Thanks again for being so patient in getting the answers to these questions for us. I say again, many of us simply didn't know what he was doing and where he stood. This has been great, despite any bumps on the road to insight.
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #67
I think he still does it. I shall find out.
This particular excerpt was June 21, 2001.
I don't know that a Datu Title was revoked at all. And if not officially done so then, it cannot be done now in any event for any reason...not by Professor Presas. That's not said to be flip, it's just what he awarded can hardly be undercut now.
Datu Worden told me several times that the original intent of Professor Presas was to have ten (10) Datus but that never reached fruition.
In the excerpt(s) I have heard thus far, all six were not mentioned and there could be several reasons for this. When I receive the tapes and start transcribing them, we'll see what else happens with this. People must look at what they support and have supported in the past to find the answers.
It is my belief that Datu Worden was given a free hand to explore as he wished and he did so, and that was with the blessing of Professor Presas.
Rank has been both praised and condemned in the past few days in these two threads. I have a personal feeling about this.
You have to understand something about my part in this. In many ways, I'm a mere messenger and some things I do in fact know about, some things I do not. I have my own opinions about Martial Arts in general and FMAs in particular.
Of course, I don't have a "problem" with someone being granted Title or License to Instruct. I don't have a problem with a "Higher Chain of Command" if you will. The idea of belts, now this is ME speaking and not Datu Worden AT ALL, to me for junior students...has always been something to please the ego of a student. I think this is why you see "belts" looked on with disdain now. Because in so many systems, you pull the time and you pay the fees, you get the rank and we all know that is a terrible rust that develops...it is mediocrity in many Systems. If it works in Modern Arnis, I think that is GREAT. I'm just trying to explain the way other people may have reacted to questions of Datu Worden's "Official Rank." They know he is "The Real Deal" and after having been involved in other Arts, rank is basically meaningless to some people. I admit having the same prejudice.
There have also been statements made to the effect that there is no "knife and staff in Modern Arnis."
This goes back to a Father giving certain children different things, the Father being Professor Presas and the children being the Datu, etc.
Datu Worden has a picture of he and Professor Presas working staff together, so the staff did exist in what area. Now, if someone else never seen nor heard of it, well...that's another debate. Professor Presas also bestowed on Datu Worden the Title of Blade Master of Modern Arnis, so obviously the blade is in there somewhere along the line.
It does get confusing and even more so now with the tragic loss of The Professor.
Sounds perfectly correct to me, that is what I wanted to get across. And this ties into your last question/statement.
I think it is safe to say two things on this matter.
1. Professor Presas wished to have His Art, and no matter how much any man loves this Art, it was his before anyone else's, he wished to have his Art controlled by his People. I think that is right and just.
2. Seeing that #1 above is The Professor's wish, I think it a cliche' to say, "This was his last wish..." Maybe it was and maybe it was not, but Professor was clear on this issue that he wanted the Filipino People to control the Destiny of Modern Arnis. Because of this, Datu Worden will support the movement to that End. To Honor the Wishes of GM Professor Remy Presas.
I also know that Datu Worden is in contact with The Presas Family, so...take from that what you will.
No problem, it has been far easier than learning HTML, FTP and even this new Morpheus Music Download Program I've been fooling with tonight.
But the lure of having that rare Ram Jam song to do Sinawalli to in the living room could not escape me...
Sometimes roads are bumpy, the roads to nowhere are what we have to avoid.
I would just ask that everyone try to hold together and not fragment and explode like so many other Arts have done in the past when the Patriarch passed on. It really is important, it is your Art and I would hate to see things become even more splintered in the future.
Respectfully,
Don
I didn't realize the Professor did an interview this late into his illness. This will be a treasure.
I hadn't heard that. These issues of titles and rank are complicated by the fact that the North American and Filipino IMAFs were so separate after the Professor's arrival in the U.S. The MARPPIO group seems to have titles such as Senior Master Guro that I don't believe we have here.
I don't intend to seem focused on rank and titles, but in the Professor's absence and without the will having been published they are in effect his only recommendations that I can access. I have had the same experiences with schools that give out rank regularly, for a fee, and in fact the Professor occasionally gave out cross-rankings which I personally dislike, so while rank alone is not to be trusted one might factor it in, and use it to help determine where the Professor wished to place people, to recall a phrase from a much earlier thread.
Clearly there is knifework in the art; espada y daga is a part of it. I never saw the Professor use the staff and never saw it listed on any official curriculum (say, posted at the IMAF site) and so I don't know if I would interpret the photo you mention in exactly the same way or not. Other possibilities include the fact that the Professor had studied many arts and would have known the staff (including from his karate training) and may have occasionally trained with or even taught it but did not meant to include it in arnis, or that--as happened so often--the Professor changed his notion of what exactly was included in Modern Arnis as time went on. I agree that there was a lot of what you mention--giving some things to some people, other things to other people (as when he directed Mr. Hartman to Mr. Buot for further evolution of his skills)--but based on my experience I'd agree that there wasn't and isn't a staff in Modern Arnis. In the Professor, yes, but he also showed us jujitsu/judo techniques that didn't seem to be part of the art from time to time, and I remember him showing Mr. Hartman and me a pressure point knockout from wristlock that didn't appear to be part of the "official" art.
The bigger issue here is, Is Modern Arnis an art that is defined by a specific collection of techniques--a curriculum--or is it something more? To the extent that it's the Professor's approach and principles, I always saw the emphasis on "it's all the same" (empty hand, stick, knife) meaning that focusing on the specific weapon is misleading.
My experience was that the art trained people in empty hand, single and double stick/sword, knife, and knife and stick/sword. I would be inclined to say that anything else was an "extra". But I think you're quite right that we all so only a slice of the art, and I do not believe that the art was static.
Yes, agreed. I wish he had clearly indicated a successor years before and passed his whole system and philosophy to that person. The closest to this is probably Mr. Delaney, who traveled with him at the end and, according to his articles in the martial arts magazines, attempted to get this kind of information from the Professor.
I see it slightly differently. I believe that he always wanted to have a Filipino lead his art--hence the datu title for Mr. Jornales, for example, which was presumably part of an attempt to lead him into a leadership role within the art--and I know that he had asked Mr. Hartman to help train his children from his second wife as he wanted them to know the art. He wanted a Filipino or person of Filipino descent at the helm. But I also believe that his illness forced him to make a choice and that he made a choice from among those available to him. That choice was the MOTTs as his successors, with Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney in the lead and the other five MOTTs backing them up. I feel he was clear that this was the choice he had made, but I agree that he would have liked it another way. He had less time than he had hoped.
OP
Keil Randor
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #69
Pappy Geo
I was not questioning his service record, nor any one elses qualifications. Just the attitude. Didn't seem very friendly, more like spoiling for a fight. Things are calmer now, so lets all let it all be.
-Keil -
I was not questioning his service record, nor any one elses qualifications. Just the attitude. Didn't seem very friendly, more like spoiling for a fight. Things are calmer now, so lets all let it all be.
-Keil -
ARNIS PRINCESS
Yellow Belt
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2001
- Messages
- 44
- Reaction score
- 15
I haven't viewed the posts in several days, and I'm just catching up on my reading. Something that was posted on "Who's Who in Modern Arnis" caught my eye.
Progressive wrote:
Prof. Presas to publicly state that he, Datu Worden, was the #1 Datu in America.
Professor Presas promoted Kelly Worden to the rank of Datu some 13 years ago.
When did Professor Presas state that Datu Worden was the #1 Datu in America? 13 years ago when he was promoted?
This information conflicts with statements that Professor Presas made in front of the entire 2000 Michigan Summer Camp. Datu Hartman tested for his 6th degree black belt at that camp. The end of the camp, Professor Presas awarded Datu Hartman the title of Datu and stated that his 6th degree black belt was the highest tested black belt in seventeen years. Professor also stated that Datu Hartman was his top ranked in the United States.
There are several members of this forum that were there at the time, in addition to myself, that can verify these facts.
Arnis Princess
Progressive wrote:
Prof. Presas to publicly state that he, Datu Worden, was the #1 Datu in America.
Professor Presas promoted Kelly Worden to the rank of Datu some 13 years ago.
When did Professor Presas state that Datu Worden was the #1 Datu in America? 13 years ago when he was promoted?
This information conflicts with statements that Professor Presas made in front of the entire 2000 Michigan Summer Camp. Datu Hartman tested for his 6th degree black belt at that camp. The end of the camp, Professor Presas awarded Datu Hartman the title of Datu and stated that his 6th degree black belt was the highest tested black belt in seventeen years. Professor also stated that Datu Hartman was his top ranked in the United States.
There are several members of this forum that were there at the time, in addition to myself, that can verify these facts.
Arnis Princess
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #71
I believe the one interview was as I stated above, June 21, 2001.
I think you are confusing two different issues. The issue is Datu and not belt rank.
Datu Hartman himself stated earlier in this thread or the other that the Title of Datu and belt rank do not necessarily go hand in hand.
But, what matters to me most is waiting for the tapes. I did hear some already which I posted earlier and that's about it for now.
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #72
I agree and I have heard an excerpt and he was amazingly clear and of sound mind. It was startling to hear actually...his Will and his Spirit, along with Modern Medicine may not have been enough to win the war in the end [we all have that coming] but he sure won some battles before that. I'm serious, you are going to be amazed. It is Datu Worden's wish that this be placed on the Internet in some audio format as I stated before. Then everyone will be able to hear this amazing man.
The speech had slowed a bit, but he was not only lucid, he was sharp.
I think you hit upon something that perhaps Professor Presas not only passed on to Datu Worden, but admired on a technical and practical level, and that was the phrase that has popped up many times. Connecting The Systems. After years of these things and a rather close association with Professor Jay and Sensei Dillman, perhaps The Professor was simply letting people know, "See, this is already in here and it is hardwired in here, all you need is this extra little bit of knowledge and you can do this, it's built in."
I'm going to say something and I don't want it to be taken the wrong way, it's not said out of disrespect or anything. American Teachers have a tendency to break things down into tiny little bits. I have seen it time and time again, Filipino, Japanese and Chinese Instructors alot of the time...do not. I guess they [rightly] consider alot of that homework and something that should become self-evident.
That is actually not disrespectful of Filipino or Asian Instructors, but of American Instructors. Especially in these Arts where so much really is self-expression and exploration. You have to break out of a mold and be your own person.
As for the staff, indeed it is a separate thing all on its own, Professor may or may not have intended it.
I think it is both. I think you use the curriculum as a vehicle to attain the "something more" you spoke of.
My wife and I were with the Professor 3-4 days before his passing and I can also attest to his clear, sharp mind up to then. He was not physically able to do much and the last day that we were there was quite rough but up to then he was pretty clear headed. I was fortunate enough this evening to hear a little of the interview that Kelly Worden did with Remy in his last days. It brought tears to my eyes hearing his voice again. I also did a brief interview with the Professor that last time he was here and I am very glad that I have this tape. I look forward to hearing more of Kellys interview.
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #74
Mao,
Which part of the Interview did you hear, specifically?
Thanks,
Don
Is it something you can share with us or was it perhaps personal? I certainly understand if it wasn't intended to be made public but otherwise it'd be nice to hear it!
Don Rearic,
Is that Don as in "The Don", you know, like connected?
What I heard was a portion of the whole "Datu" question. Who is, what does the term mean for our purposes. Roland Dantes was also there adding some cultural background to the definition.
Remy sounded quite clear although perhaps a bit tired in parts.
Arnisador, it was an interview that I was going to use to write an article that never got written. He was at my home shmoozing my wife and daughters. He was pretty good at that. He was relaxed and having a nice time. I just asked him a few questions about coming to the U.S.. He went into the story of when his life was threatened and he was flying out of the Philipines and what that flight was like.
Is that Don as in "The Don", you know, like connected?
What I heard was a portion of the whole "Datu" question. Who is, what does the term mean for our purposes. Roland Dantes was also there adding some cultural background to the definition.
Remy sounded quite clear although perhaps a bit tired in parts.
Arnisador, it was an interview that I was going to use to write an article that never got written. He was at my home shmoozing my wife and daughters. He was pretty good at that. He was relaxed and having a nice time. I just asked him a few questions about coming to the U.S.. He went into the story of when his life was threatened and he was flying out of the Philipines and what that flight was like.
OP
Don Rearic
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #77
Originally posted by Mao
Don Rearic,
Is that Don as in "The Don", you know, like connected?
I'm The Fixer. The Cooler... :nuke:
[Raspy Voice:] "Igonnamakeahyou ah offer youah cannot refuse..."
OP
zenman
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #78
Other than the friend's Datu Worden has in JKD he has also participated in the JKD Nucleus, I believe at the time he participated he was the only non-JKD person to do so up to that point. Maybe Don or Geo can clarify this as to dates.
From what I remember in the Early days Kelly Wardon helped bring the Proffessor(at that time his title )over here & said to live with Wardon for a while.After a few years the Datu become the rank or title & others sprang from that.Yes Remy did staff - Espsada y daga - Karate based kicks-jujitsu based locks & throws & everntualy hooked up with Wally Jay for small circle jujitsu.Now Wally was trained to Black belt in Danzan ryu in Hawii but this was Aikido as Irabara & Bernie Lau also were there demo.The Question is not if Kelly is skilled & he has great skills-But Ive always asked how can the datu rank be as it is a spiritual leader to some & higher then grandmaster.Dose this give them an art no others have?Remy had many arts as I have stated befor & 1 of which Tapi tapi were Delany seems to be the heir.This was not to be as Randy Shea wanted him for seminar partner Hence assist. grandmaster.I think thats the tile Randy Shea told me.Now there was a Arnis de Tranka system also but those tape were taken off the market & to this day you can get De tranka 13-15 I beleave are the numbers from Delanay.1 or 2 of which are McMannis female based.Delanay promoted her to Proffesor.I dont know if she still holds it.I do have the 1-12 set I beleave the numbers to be of Arnis De tranka.I havent seen for a while so Im not sure on the numbers.
monkey said:
Gee, I thought he came over for the State of California on a $160,000 Grant to teach police officers.
I also thought he started working with Shishir the FIRST Datu. I believe that Datu Kelly Worden was not into Modern Arnis until about 83. I could be wrong on that plus or minus a year and I apologize as I am not trying nail down Kelly's facts here, but to prove that Tom does not have all the answers. I openly admit when I am unsure, or when I have to verify with others, but I do not try to convince people that I am the only historian of a said art and that my version of the truth is the only one.
Similar threads
- Rod Coulter
- Modern Arnis
Latest Discussions
-
-
Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?
- Latest: Tigerwarrior
-
-
-
