Who Practices a Western Martial Art?

[Langenschwert]

I suppose I should also post Tom Knapp here as well. Mind blowing.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uHt4AwYb4&feature=related

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[arnisador]

Wow, what accuracy!

 

[Ahriman]

I started thinking (yep, an unusual thing as some of my friends say) about something...
Namely that do we (and if so, why do we) limit WMA to the individual fighting arts? Just because the more siege weapons I make, the more I plan my groups tactics at LARPs (yeah, nothing historical, but I'm fighting to make the rules better and more realistic) and the more time I spend with designing and upgrading our little fortress (a simple camp fortification in the style of the 17th century-ish star forts), well with all this I feel more and more that these are parts of the art.
Opinions on this?

 

[RedMonster]

I used to fence in college and I loved Sabre and Epee. Funny now that I am getting into FMA that I resort to some of the parries I used in sabre as opposed to thinking about the other hand I have that is holding a weapon! I think some of what I learned in fencing and that is certainly applicable in FMA, with emphasis on control and footwork.

Red

 

[kwaichang]

Indeed you'll find that many weapon techniques can be utilized without weapons.
Your weapon is merely an extension of your hand/reach and so this is easily adapted.

de garde !:wuguns:

 

[lklawson]

Indeed you'll find that many weapon techniques can be utilized without weapons.
Your weapon is merely an extension of your hand/reach and so this is easily adapted.

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, consider that perhaps performing empty hand techniques the way you perform weapon techniques may not be optimum use and vice versa.

For example, when you thrust with a sword or a big knife, you want to point to do the work and accuracy and speed along with minimal telegraphing is absolutely key to success. To that end you move the hand first, then the arm, and only then any body movement at all and that is largely linear. The result of a typical "proper" thrust is often that there simply is not a whole lot of "force" behind it in comparison with other attacks. There doesn't have to be. You're concentrating the force in a needle sharp point which will quite easily penetrate even heavy leather and into flesh. In contrast, when you punch, you want to put as much "force" into it as possible, because the fist isn't pointy you must bludgeon. When punching, you engage the hips, the legs, the back, and often a hip-rotation or a drop-step body movement, all with the goal of increasing the force going into the punch.

The upshot of this is that if you were to punch exactly the same way you give point, then your punches will be weak and lack good power. Further, if you give point the way you deliver a powerful punch, your thrust will tend to be more telegraphed and thus easier to defend.

So, just to be contentious and encourage polite debate, perhaps the old adage that you use your empty hands the same as if you were holding your weapon is perhaps not the best way to achieve optimum results.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[kwaichang]

So, just to be contentious and encourage polite debate, perhaps the old adage that you use your empty hands the same as if you were holding your weapon is perhaps not the best way to achieve optimum results.

ACTUALLY what I said was:

Indeed you'll find that many weapon techniques can be utilized without weapons.

Your weapon is merely an extension of your hand/reach and so this is easily adapted.

MEANING should you not have your weapon, don't think you are defenseless, your hands can move in the same manner and provide a defense. Obviously a weapon extends the reach, however, body positioning facilitates protection.

 

[Taker87]

There's Abrazare and antica lotta italiana(Italy), Pankration (Greece), Quarterstaff, boxing, Wrestling (England), Highland Wrestling (Scotland), Lucha and A Mano Limpia (Spain), Galhofa and Jogo Do Pau (Portugal), Zipota (Euskal Herria), Lucha canaria and Juego del Palo (Tenerife), Savate (France), Hopak (Ukraine), Xridoli (Georgia), Kunst des Fechten (Germany), Vechten (Holland), Systema (Russia), and Abir (Isreal) for european martial arts.
In the Americas there's Isuna Nika (Comanche), Rumi Maki (Peru), Lua (Polynesia), Oki Chi Taw (Cree)... that's all I know.

 

[Taker87]

There's a book Called Sevillian Steel by James Loriega based on spanish knife fighting, How to Wrestle Catch as Catch Can style (English) , Quarterstaff fighting ( English and German arts of staff fighting).

 

[lklawson]

There's a book Called Sevillian Steel by James Loriega based on spanish knife fighting,

James' book is excellent. Worth the investment. He also teaches a number of seminar events every year. Worth it to try to get time with him if you can.

How to Wrestle Catch as Catch Can style (English),

I have several antique CaCC manuals on my lulu site, free for download as PDF. http://stores.lulu.com/lawson

Some number of Bare Knuckle Pugilism manuals too.

Quarterstaff fighting ( English and German arts of staff fighting).

Are you talking antique manuals such as Silver or are you talking new material such as produced by Terry Brown?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jarrod]

Who on MT Practices a Western Martial Art and WHY? Western Martial Arts (WMA) include, but are NOT limited to: Western Boxing, Wrestling, Krav Maga, Systema and other RMA, Fencing, Native American Fighting Arts, Archery using Western style bows, and Savate. You may choose more than one!

i have boxed & done a small amount of wrestling in the past. i fenced for about 6 months. i also train sambo, & have recently booked a block of 5 private lessons in italian dagger with a historical fencer named mark wickersham. also, i have been reading up on gouren & cornish wrestling, & recently contacted Gouren USA to see about integrating celtic wrestling into my club. we also integrate bits of catch wrestling which i have no formal training in, but the principles of which i adhere to more closely than bjj or more mainstream grappling styles (controlling your opponent from any position, submission from anywhere, why pass the guard when you can leglock, etc).

i have recently become facinated with la canne & irish stick fighting, & once i get relocated to denver in may i'm going to try to start a stick fighting study group based on these methods.

as to why: well, initially i just tried to train in whatever works. some of it was eastern, some of it was western. i'm also a bit of a history nerd, so later i became more interested in preserving the lesser-known historical styles.

on a somewhat philosophical note, i think that america suffers from a tremendous shortage of culture. tmz has replaced political debate, modern folk art is almost unknown, & physical culture consists of watching the game while sucking down wings & beer at your local sports bar. it's enormously unfulfilling.

since i'm concerned about this, my options as i saw them consisted of 1) co-opting another culture (as is often done with eastern, native american, or others) or, 2) trying to help connect to past culture, & make it relevent to the present. i think it's important to preserve these elements of my own heratige, so i am choosing #2.

jf

 

[Langenschwert]

Hi Jarrod,

Here's the link for the Rocky Mountain Swordplay guild:

http://www.chicagoswordplayguild.com/c/theGuild/classesRSG.asp

While obviously dedicated to HES, they might know some people who are into la canne and whatnot. At least you'll be able to learn some Fiore if you have the time.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[jarrod]

thanks! i actually found them via google just last night. i intend to visit them when i get out there.

jf

 

[CDKJudoka]

Wrestling and US Army Combatives, but I was always into KMAs primarily.

And Russians systems? Should they be considered Western, when they themselves refer to Europeans and Americans a Westerners and themselves as Eastern People? That and considering most of their land is in Asia.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Mainly western fencing (epee, foil), general swordplay, mostly with either historical or SCA practitioners who wanted to get together and trade techniques with a kendo guy, and archery (I'm not all that good) with a small exposure to boxing and wrestling, and of course, good old fashioned walking stick. Done some friendly bare knuckle when I was young and stupid, but that hardly qualifies as a martial art.

That and I'm pretty mean with a 6 and a 3 D-cell flashlight! The six and the three; workman's daisho, hehe.

I've thought about actually working up a curriculum for some of it, but with taekwondo and kendo, it would be very eclectic.

Daniel

 

[lklawson]

Done some friendly bare knuckle when I was young and stupid, but that hardly qualifies as a martial art.

Depends on your perspective. As late as the early 20th C., Pugilism was considered "The Manly Art of Self Defense." In fact, many old boxing manuals (starting with the Broughton era rules and going all the way up through the Marquis') use "self defense" in the title or sub-title.

If you're just saying that you don't, personally, feel like you put enough time or study in for it to be, for you, a Martial Art, well, that's understandable. We all got limited time. However, historically, Boxing was DEFINITELY considered part and pacel of the "Arts Martial."

That and I'm pretty mean with a 6 and a 3 D-cell flashlight! The six and the three; workman's daisho, hehe.

I've thought about actually working up a curriculum for some of it, but with taekwondo and kendo, it would be very eclectic.

Daniel

Depends on what you want and/or what your students want. Many students are quite interested in self defense applications with flashlights. If you got info you think they want, why not put together some material? Please feel encouraged to do so.

On that note, these "tactical flashlights" are becoming quite popular (I've been carying one for years) and are just the right size for Kopo/yawari techniques. Might consider that too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Wrestling and US Army Combatives, but I was always into KMAs primarily.

Speaking of Combatives, did you see that I repubed the '44 edition of Cosnecks manual? Free download, as usual.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Depends on your perspective. As late as the early 20th C., Pugilism was considered "The Manly Art of Self Defense." In fact, many old boxing manuals (starting with the Broughton era rules and going all the way up through the Marquis') use "self defense" in the title or sub-title.

Completely argee.

If you're just saying that you don't, personally, feel like you put enough time or study in for it to be, for you, a Martial Art, well, that's understandable. We all got limited time.

Yes, that is what I meant.

Depends on what you want and/or what your students want. Many students are quite interested in self defense applications with flashlights. If you got info you think they want, why not put together some material? Please feel encouraged to do so.

On that note, these "tactical flashlights" are becoming quite popular (I've been carying one for years) and are just the right size for Kopo/yawari techniques. Might consider that too.

I appreciate the feedback!

Still working out what students want ballanced with what I'm qualified to teach. Over the weekend, a friend with an historical fencing background and I got together about maybe putting together some informal lessons for interested parties and seeing where it leads.

Daniel

 

[matt_mcg]

I train in savate, and savate is the only thing I train in regularly these days.

I've done a couple of years of fencing, a couple of canne sessions [training measured in hours rather than months], and some western boxing in the past.

 

[arnisador]

On that note, these "tactical flashlights" are becoming quite popular

Enough so that the Wall Street Journal took notice of them from a business standpoint in a 2006 article. A year earlier they had written an article on the tactical knives business. (The articles themselves are now subscription-only.) I find it amazing that the WSJ thought they were worth covering--what I thought of as very much niche products! Can an article on selling rattan sticks for fun and profit be far behind?