Who Practices a Western Martial Art?

[lklawson]

enough already. :-(

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not upset with you in any way. Just using the opportunity you so kindly presented for me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

lklawson: given the word itself you don't really need any belief in it's european origin... Etymologically it refers to Mars - the god not the planet. So we have a word here that refers to an ancient roman god - why would easterners create a category name which refers to that god from that era? Or why would we europeans name eastern arts after a god long since "dead" then?

Indeed. That would be thinking logically about it. Actually that would be thinking about it. Nevertheless, it seems common for many people to assume that "martial art" is some sort of direct translation from one of the oriental languages. They correctly understand that the individual words "martial" and "art" are English (well, Latin-ish anyhow) but, for some reason, seem to believe that putting the two words together to form the term of art "Martial Art" never occured before the introduction of oriental martial arts and that it must, somehow, be a translation or something. <shrug>

(BTW, if I recall it well, the term was first mentioned in either the 14th or the 15th century; I may be wrong though)

14th sounds right. I could look up the reference and find the exact date (burried somewhere in my stacks-upon-stacks of material), but I doubt anyone reading this thread cares for what the exact date is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Ahriman]

I would thank you very much if you could find the exact source... I scrolled through my books, but most German sources use "kunst des fechten" - and as I focus on the German tradition, I don't really have Italian, English or Spanish sources.
And yes, I was too lazy to read through Liberi right now.:lol:

 

[lklawson]

I would thank you very much if you could find the exact source... I scrolled through my books, but most German sources use "kunst des fechten" - and as I focus on the German tradition, I don't really have Italian, English or Spanish sources.
And yes, I was too lazy to read through Liberi right now.:lol:

I'll dig through my sources when I get a chance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[kwaichang]

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not upset with you in any way. Just using the opportunity you so kindly presented for me.

ok, then I think this quote applies.:EG:

Dr. Buddy Rydell: Now then we need to go over some ground rules. You are to refrain from any any acts of violence including verbal assault and vulgar hand gestures. You may not use rage enhancing substances, such as caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, crack cocaine, slippy-flippy's, jelly stingers, trick sticks, bing bangs or flying willards. :duel:

 

[Langenschwert]

I'll dig through my sources when I get a chance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The earliest one I can think of is from Pallas Armata (an English rapier manual), which refers to the noble "Martial Art of Fencing" in its poetic preface. It's from the 16th Century, long before contact with Asian arts.

As I said many times before, swordsmanship, firearms use and even flying a fighter jet are all martial arts. Just so happens some are very modern.

Check it out: Todd Jarett, a martial artist of the highest calibre, whose weapon is the pistol: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48 Note the attention to breathing, fine technical control, etc. If kyudo is a martial art, then so is this.

Here's some German longsword. Note the similarities with Japanese koryu kenjutsu. So if kenjutsu is a Martial Art, so is this: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=lYwdE3f5fFQ

Here's some more. Note the armed grappling at the end: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y&feature=related

Here's some German medieval Ringen: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xfuMYqfmACM

And for the truly obscure, longswords with duelling shields: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=z9VG4ClQcJk

Obviously all martial arts. The very term Martial Arts (and other similar terms) was applied to Western arts long before it was to those from the East. But I'm certainly not going to say that Kenjutsu or Kung-fu aren't martial arts since they weren't developed in Europe. But if I want to get all linguistically pedantic about it, I could certainly make such an argument. And why would I do such a silly thing? No good reason that I can think of.

If a koryu kenjutsu practicioner and I can recognize about 80-90% of what the other person does, what makes one a martial art and the other not? Absolutely nothing... just a person's opinion on what culture the word applies to. It would be just as asinine to say that classical european music is well, music, while classical Indian music is just "organized groupings of sound and silence". Isn't that what music is? We've shown that the term Martial Arts originally applied to indigineous EUROPEAN arts, and weapon-based arts at that. It's a European term, it applies to European arts. You can use the term for Asian arts if you like (it certainly makes sense to do so, since we all speak English on this forum), but just remember where it came from (Europe), and what it means: The Arts of War.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[lklawson]

The earliest one I can think of is from Pallas Armata (an English rapier manual), which refers to the noble "Martial Art of Fencing" in its poetic preface. It's from the 16th Century

That's good enough for me.

I'll still look and see if I can find anything older but I'll move it down on the priority chart.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Ahriman]

(just joking here)
The art/s of Mars for that, but I'm only sometimes THIS pedantic about etymology. And only if I know what I say. And as I don't really learn Latin, I'm even more rarely pedantic than I'd like.
...
(seriously from here)
The videos are very, very nice. I'm rather surprised that others thought about using duelling shields as well - some of my biggest favourites. Sadly no one wants to try them out with me.
The ringen video got me thinking again about recording the techniques... But I still hesitate as how could we do that without killing the partners AND showing intent, speed and strength required for proper understanding. I don't know if the guys who made the video were very skilled or very tough or very lucky.
...
As a pre-emptitive strike to (but not against) those who may come in and start speaking about the spiritual part... Originally all martial arts have evolved for more efficient killing. No one can deny it, I think. In Europe, the arts became competitive sports (both martial and non-martial), in the orient, they mostly became either competitive sports or got that spiritual part. You see, when you train for survival and victory, and your very life depends on the art, you don't really care for the philosophal part. If your training is no longer the last thing between you and death, you'll have time to think about things not relevant in combat. This is of course not a degrading of more modern arts - it's only what makes Wittenweller's work as much a martial art as Tallhoffer's. (for those unfamiliar with these names, Wittenweller wrote purely about fighting, while Tallhoffer has parts dealing with manners, religion, etc.)
...
Sorry - I might be in ranting mode.

 

[thardey]

As a pre-emptitive strike to (but not against) those who may come in and start speaking about the spiritual part... Originally all martial arts have evolved for more efficient killing. No one can deny it, I think. In Europe, the arts became competitive sports (both martial and non-martial), in the orient, they mostly became either competitive sports or got that spiritual part. You see, when you train for survival and victory, and your very life depends on the art, you don't really care for the philosophal part. If your training is no longer the last thing between you and death, you'll have time to think about things not relevant in combat. This is of course not a degrading of more modern arts - it's only what makes Wittenweller's work as much a martial art as Tallhoffer's. (for those unfamiliar with these names, Wittenweller wrote purely about fighting, while Tallhoffer has parts dealing with manners, religion, etc.)
...
Sorry - I might be in ranting mode.

Renaissance Fencing had a lot to do with philosophy, geometry, and it's relationship to religion. The general idea was that the more you understood music, geometry, and other sciences, and the more you were able to live by them (fencing, dancing, etc) the more you were "in tune" with the God who created those sciences.

See Christianity and Platonism

That's where I understand the idea of "judicial dueling" survived through the renaissance. While it originally was what it seemed, (God will favor the innocent.) In the renaissance it changed subtly. Now it was believed that one who has studied fencing is more righteous than someone who hasn't. The study of fencing, music, dance, and geometry was supposed to actually make you a more righteous person, since you are more "in tune" with God, and therefore make you act correctly in other areas of life as well.

In that way, it's not much different than Mushasi's take on dueling.

 

[Ahriman]

After re-reading my post, I realized that dealing with 3 buyers AND speaking on the phone AND checking resources AND writing the post simultaneously probably wasn't a too smart idea...
Especially the last part was written too hastily. I understand what did I mean, but I should have written it more clearly for the non-telepathic minority. I wanted to clarify that in my opinion the spiritual or not totally fight-related "content" or lack of it doesn't matter in the decision if it's an "art" or not. I hope no one took my words as saying European arts have only combative parts. As thardey pointed out, it's not true.
I hope I was clearer this time about my intents.
​

 

[thardey]

After re-reading my post, I realized that dealing with 3 buyers AND speaking on the phone AND checking resources AND writing the post simultaneously probably wasn't a too smart idea...
Especially the last part was written too hastily. I understand what did I mean, but I should have written it more clearly for the non-telepathic minority. I wanted to clarify that in my opinion the spiritual or not totally fight-related "content" or lack of it doesn't matter in the decision if it's an "art" or not. I hope no one took my words as saying European arts have only combative parts. As thardey pointed out, it's not true.
I hope I was clearer this time about my intents.
​

Yeah, that's how I took it. Even though WMA has spiritual roots, that still doesn't determine if it's a martial art or not. "Gun-fu" for instance, doesn't rely much on "inner peace".

 

[kroh]

Other - Wrestling, Boxing, MACP

Regards,
Walt

 

[tapetemowin]

Tansi!

It is so interesting to see the breadth of possibilities available in martial arts training! When I started out, I never imagined the ranges that are possible. Mind you, I also trained in fencing without recognizing it as a martial art. I just thought it was fun.

I train in okichitaw - a First Nations martial art based on Plains Cree fighting techniques and weaponry. In addition to the fencing I mentioned, I have trained in aikido and I currently study taekwondo. I am priviledged to work with a friend in iaido and jodo when we can manage it, but the focus of my training is now okichitaw.

Okichitaw weapons include: the gunstock war club; short lance, tomahawk and knife.

Okichitaw is the most athletically challenging art I have trained in, and I particularly enjoy learning about the philosophical system that forms the underpinning of the art.

With respect,

Tapetemowin

 

[louie]

Currently training with the Glasgow Company of Duellists in German Longsword, I've also been involved in learning traditional forms of Scottish martial arts including singlestick, the broadsword Dirk & targe and traditional forms of wrestling.

Scotland has a long history of 'dancing' with swords & daggers.... I've also been researching the 'Highland Dirk Dance' for several years now and would describe it as a dance-like kata - similar to an Indonesian knife form or 'juru' rather than the rigid karate styles.
One version of the dance involved attacking and defensive techniques with single-sticks and targe shields and was last performed in Britain in 1850 by two brothers named MacLennan, one of which was a colleague of Mr D. C. Mather who passed on this version of the dance I was taught.

In this pic, one of the last people to have been taught the dance takes me through the moves!

Louie

 

[arnisador]

Wow, neat! I'd love to hear more about the dance-kata.

 

[lklawson]

Wow, neat! I'd love to hear more about the dance-kata.

Not a whole lot of info available on the 'net for it. From what I recall think of a combination of kata set to music and a rough-and-tumble competitive "men's only", partner is your competitor, division dance.

There are definitely examples of solo-set drills and other "kata"-ish type drills. Examples include Angelo's lessons, the drills given in Pepper's Broadsword book, "Forming the Square" in Lang's Walkingstick manual, line drills in Cutlass (shipboard) and Police Saber (recent threat at Swordforum), and other various examples. 15 or 20 years ago, I remember reading a historical account of a king/prince/duke/general or something intimidating the opposing army by displaying profound skill while performing a "sword dance" in their view (no, I don't have any clue what the source material was, or even know for sure where I saw the quote... might have seen it on the original Arador Armory forum).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[louie]

Wow, neat! I'd love to hear more about the dance-kata.

Hi Arnisador...
There's a bit more info on the Dirk Dance on my site at;
http://dirkdance.tripod.com/

Hi Kirk
There's also a kata-like set of moves called 'The Salute of the 5 Guards' which was for broadsword/singlestick. This can be found in the book 'Anti-Pugilism' by Capt. Sinclair.

Louie

 

[lklawson]

There's also a kata-like set of moves called 'The Salute of the 5 Guards' which was for broadsword/singlestick. This can be found in the book 'Anti-Pugilism' by Capt. Sinclair.

Good call. I'm embarassed to have neglected its mention.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[arnisador]

There's a bit more info on the Dirk Dance on my site at;
http://dirkdance.tripod.com/

Cool, thanks! Hmmmm, I probably need the book...OK, just ordered it!

 

[louie]

Cool, thanks! Hmmmm, I probably need the book...OK, just ordered it!

Hi Arnisador...

The book 'Highland Knife Fighting' was written by Chris Thompson of the Cateran Society who included my research into the Dirk Dance when putting it together. There's a chapter on the dance itself which has my interpretation and illustration of the leg locks, trips and sweeps, but doesn't give a step by step guide.

Having just bought a copy of the book myself, I've found that there's plenty of historical detail into the techniques used by Highlanders although personally I would disagree on Chris' interpretation on blocking a downward (ice-pick style) dagger attack - which would risk having your blocking wrist slashed or painfully locked.

I would suggest that the Highlanders used the same method as other Europeans systems such as Talhoffer or Fiori to stop an attack, by catching the opponent's wrist.

Louie