Western Martial Arts

[Rob_Broad]

I only say what everybody else thinks. I know some old school ITF TKD guys who can take your head off with a hook punch. But today most people only see and hear about WTF TKD.

I don't kow about the rest of the Canadians but everytime I type"KD" I remember college.

 

[Despairbear]

Here is a quetsion for all of you. Today I was working with some of my "students" and we where going threw some knife v.s knife combat from a 14th c. german manual. One of my people asked me why so many of the attacks where from a "icepick" (blade down) style. I have worked with a fellow who was teaching a form of Philipino (sp?) knife fighting that involved a more standard blde forward attack and lots of small hand cuts a very diffrent style than that of the germans. Any thoughts on the "icepick" style of attack and why it may be so common the manuals of the middle ages?



Despair Bear

 

[Cthulhu]

One reason I can think of is to aid in penetrating some type of light armor, like leather or possibly even chain mail. Also, the grip could give you more control in attacking the joints of heavier plate armor.

Just a thought. I'd probably have to see the manual myself to find the reason.

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

I too would have to agree with chugalugathoo. The proliferation of body armour probably neccesitated the need for the "icepick" grip to better gain power to get through the armour. Also it would allow the body to be manipulated easier. As people opted out of the heavy armour for more manouverable clothes the foreward grips probably came to more fashionable style.

Correct me if I am wrong but the FMA use the forward style because they did not use the armour that the europeans used and therefore had more of a cutting advantage. Of course they didn't mind changing to %$#@ up the spanish when they tried to take over now did they? Heh heh heh...

And Rob, to this day I will not eat powdered cheese.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Despairbear
Any thoughts on the "icepick" style of attack and why it may be so common the manuals of the middle ages?

I think it was because the short blade was used mostly for defense and the long blade for attack. The dagger was being used like a tonfa used for blocking and only rarely as a dagger to attack. The issue of additional power to break through armor also makes sense but I do believe the short weapon was mostly defensive and the grip was selected with defense in mind. Of course some styles used it to parry in a blade-forward manner as well.

For fighting between two individuals both armed only with knives the blade-forward method is strongly preferred in general.

 

[Despairbear]

Some interesting theorys. The manual I am thinking of treats armored combat in a seperate section that that of unarmored with knife, so I am not too sure about the idea of a icepick style used to penitrate armor. As for the tonfa comment, I tend to agree; in "The Flower of Battle" 1410 an illistrated combat between a sword and a knife the icepick grip is used to parry the sword strike.

Here is another question for you all. In most WMA manuals the gripping of the blade of knifes and swords is a sugested manuver have you run into any EMA styles that will utilise the gripping of the blade?



Despair Bear

 

[Cthulhu]

...for the icepick grip: it could be possible that the metals used at that time couldn't retain an adequate edge for long, so slashing attacks with something as small as a knife wouldn't be as effective as stabbing attacks.

Cthulhu

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I vaguely remember reading at some point that they only used to use the point, and that slashing attacks came later, or was it the reverse? I dunno. Too much codine today I think.

But the soft metal idea is a definate. softer metals didn't stay sharp as long, or straight.

 

[Despairbear]

Well the soft metal theroy is interesting but simply not true. Tempered pattern forged weapons hold an incredible edge and while the mettal availible to the smiths of the time was not of the quality that we use today (due to modern metalurgy practices) it was more than enough to make a weapon out of. Any weapon that bent that eazy (when it was not ment to) simply would not be used, it was too dangerous.

I think what it may come down to is simply a type of style for the time.


Despair Bear

 

[Cthulhu]

I didn't mean that the metal was of such poor quality that it would bend; simply that it wouldn't retain an edge. Even modern blades of quality steel won't hold an edge if sharpened at the wrong angle. Also, if the steel was strong and brittle, the edge would constantly chip with use.

Cthulhu

 

[Icepick]

D'Bear -

I've seen Dr. Gyi of Bando teach a "mid-grip", where he sort of clamps or gums (no thumb) the belly of the blade to counter a defender who grabs your knife hand with both of his hands. Maybe it was more commonplace with gauntlets on.

 

[GouRonin]

I have also seen people used that grip for control purposes on a knife.

As for metal and it's consistancies, if you have any specific questions regarding them I have a friend who makes knives professionally.
http://members.tripod.com/~kenpo_ronin/joearnold.html
I can ask him questions or you can ask him yourself for your research.

 

[bscastro]

I both like and don't like Tae Bo. I think it's a great workout when done correctly and intensely. But even as exercise, case should be given to make sure technique is correct and that the person doing it doesn't rush into it as they can pull something if they are not careful.

However, I agree that it is dangerous for Tae Bo-ers to think they can defend themselves. Also, it is unethical for an instructor to have them think they can do so.

Bryan

 

[GouRonin]

The one testimonial implies that the woman, "Now feels safer walking the streets."

I assume that it's because she is in shape to run faster and for longer.

 

[Icepick]

Has anyone run across any info on the use of the shillelagh? I know it wasn't primarily a weapon, but apparently my great-grandfather wielded his with some skill on the Buffalo docks during the Depression. I've always wondered if there were any documented techniques.

 

[GouRonin]

You don't have a pic of one do you because I'm not sure if I have ever seen what a standard one looks like.

 

[Icepick]

Gou -


http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1023864547

btw, congrats on the 500th post, you REALLY keep this place hopping!

 

[Cthulhu]

Has anyone here ever practiced in Savate, either formally or just tinkering around? I ilke the theory behind some of their kicks, though I'd probably implement them differently (I don't like how the rear hand swings back for balance and power).

Cthulhu

 

[Despairbear]

As to gripping the blade, even with a full gauntlet the palm of your hand is unprotected. Gauntlets where used to protect the back of the hand and to transfer the impact to the hilt of the weapon being held. I have played around with live steel knifes gripping the blade a few different ways. One way was grabbing the "flats" of the blade it seemed to work ok but was not a very strong grip. The other way was a very firm grip around the whole blade ut seemed to work a little better. Woudl I use either of these in combat? I don't know, I guess if some one was trying to kill me with a knife I would do what ever I had to.


Just remeber; in a knife fight the guy who bleeds to death last wins.


Despair Bear

 

[GouRonin]

Looks like a golf club to me. Golf clubs are excellent weapons.