Who Practices a Western Martial Art?

[Fionn McCool]

Bareknuckle boxing
Wrestling/Sambo
Irish martial arts
Savate
Historical fencing
navaja/bowie/hawk
RMA

Dabble in Garrotte Larense, Jogo Du Pau, fokos and several other arts

Very cool stuff, I've never heard of most of these things. What falls under Irish martial arts? And what is Navaja/Bowie/hawk (knife fighting?)

 

[Ken Pfrenger]

Very cool stuff, I've never heard of most of these things. What falls under Irish martial arts? And what is Navaja/Bowie/hawk (knife fighting?)

Howdie Fionn!

The Irish martial traditions I study include the stickwork (third grip, twohanded grip and fencing grip),wrestling and boxing. While there are Irish styles of wrestling (a native backhold style called coraiocht and collar & elbow) there is no Irish boxing style but the Irish sure took to the English version didn't they? So I combine these three elements into one cohesive system...it's alot of fun!

A navaja is a big folding knife from Spain. It's use overlaps that of the bowie knife. Both of these make a fine companion to a tomahawk.

if you have any more questions I would be happy to attempt to answer them.

 

[Fionn McCool]

Howdie Fionn!

The Irish martial traditions I study include the stickwork (third grip, twohanded grip and fencing grip)

Yes, I had alook at your site and read some of your links, great stuff! So judging by what I see you prefer the onehanded grips. Any particular reasons?

I can't believe this stuff is more common knowledge. Great job bringing it to the forefront.:samurai:

 

[chinto]

Howdie Fionn!

The Irish martial traditions I study include the stickwork (third grip, twohanded grip and fencing grip),wrestling and boxing. While there are Irish styles of wrestling (a native backhold style called coraiocht and collar & elbow) there is no Irish boxing style but the Irish sure took to the English version didn't they? So I combine these three elements into one cohesive system...it's alot of fun!

A navaja is a big folding knife from Spain. It's use overlaps that of the bowie knife. Both of these make a fine companion to a tomahawk.

if you have any more questions I would be happy to attempt to answer them.

hmm interesting.. would like to know what sources and things. I have an invitation from the Vatican Swiss Guard to Learn the Halberd from them if I can get there..... I also have 20+ years of experience in the S.C.A. some in the fighting.. others in martialling and other things. I hope to soon take the commando de suiss up on that offer!

 

[tellner]

Other - Defensive firearms tactics

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Gunfighting-As American as apple pie.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Where to begin?

I've been boxing since I was about 8, or at least, learning to box since then-I did do the Golden GLoves and nearly get my head handed to me. I also picked up a little about Indian combat a long the way, and I wrestled for a short time in middle school and high school, but quit because making weight was stupid for someone with my medical history (or anyone at that age, but it was the 70's....). I've been an archer for a long time, though I pretty much use it exclusively to hunt elk and deer (and turkey, though I don't kill many-yes, I usually get outsmarted by an animal with a brain the size of the tip of my finger!)

Western Boxing
Western Wrestling styles
BJJ

 

[kwaichang]

Now there's a Western martial art for you.

 

[Ahriman]

Hmm... I practice ringen, dagger, longsword, dopplehander, poleaxe, all these in the Liechtenauer tradition. Besides this I'm learning messer, hand-pavise, spear, again in the Liechtenauer tradition. And besides this I practice knife and unarmed from various sources. Aaaaaand I plan to start studying Krav Maga and Systema soon - if I like them, I'll start learning.
Aaaaaaaand...:uhyeah:

 

[kwaichang]

Well German fencing tradition generally isn't considered a martial art. Swordsmanship, I've always thought of as its own art while martial arts always involves physical techniques and sometimes weapons also, swordsmanship generally does not generally involve unarmed combat.

 

[thardey]

Well German fencing tradition generally isn't considered a martial art. Swordsmanship, I've always thought of as its own art while martial arts always involves physical techniques and sometimes weapons also, swordsmanship generally does not generally involve unarmed combat.

Through other discussions of the forum about Martial Arts, I would say that here, generally speaking, swordsmanship is definitely included. Most would consider Japanese Sword Arts, or Haidong Gumdo (sp?) as a Martial Art. It doesn't matter whether it is from the east or the west.

P.S.

Some (myself included) would go so far as to include personal firearms use as a martial art. That is if you actually train in how to use it.

 

[kwaichang]

Thardey: thanks, I appreciate the input, it's just that it never crossed my informational input. As for your P.S.

Some (myself included) would go so far as to include personal firearms use as a martial art. That is if you actually train in how to use it.

Here too, I've never encountered anyone who considered firearms (useage) a martial art. Now we're not talking Iraq here. I've only my Bureau training, S&W training and visits to my local range buddies to base this on.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Firearms training is certainly a part of the martial science that I train in.

(an integral part)

I would also agree with Thardey that European swordsmanship, knife work, etc. is also a martial form or art in its own right.

 

[Ahriman]

Two things I have problems with in your post, kwaichang, though nothing personal. (you're only degrading a rather big part of my life, how could be that personal? )
1, The thread mentions fencing and archery as a possible art of choice. In my mind fencing is something done with swords, and archery is something done with projectiles... now I don't know for sure what did the thread starter mean by fencing, but olympic fencing is, while a rather demanding sport, very much removed from martial context, and "ye ole fechten" with actual swords is... what I mentioned.
2, Swordmanship not involving unarmed combat? I've never seen (so far) a fechtbuch not covering at least ringen am schwert... most cover pure ringen as well.
3, (I know I said two problems) The masters who thaught this "stuff" back then considered it to be an art, they killed and died for it. For this, I respect their opinion, thus I consider this an art as well. We shouldn't get into the ages old "only easterns had real arts" VS "stfu japanmaniac sob" debate, both sides had arts, end.
...
...
...
Afterword: I didn't intend to bring this to a personal level. It's possible that some of my words came through as harsh or rude, but it's not their goal. I'm in a cynic mood right now. My apologies for anyone who feel that my words were personal attacks.
(better to clarify this - I might be in cynical mood, but I'm surely not in the "Iwannabebanned" mood)

Edited to emphasize one important part of my post - and to add that I allow my "dark humour" to sometimes attack myself, which over the net sometimes end up misunderstood. I know (or at least I suspect) that you do not degrade what I do.
I feel we spent way more time on this than it deserved. But if we are at it, anyone a little more kicking-of-a-dead-horse?

 

[kwaichang]

Ok, to use a Darmokian phrase: Temba, his arms wide.

BTW, there was nothing degrading said, merely my opinion based upon my experience in non-eurocentric things.

Nothing you said was taken in a personal context and your practices were certainly not degraded in my eyes.

 

[lklawson]

Well German fencing tradition generally isn't considered a martial art. Swordsmanship, I've always thought of as its own art while martial arts always involves physical techniques and sometimes weapons also, swordsmanship generally does not generally involve unarmed combat.

It's quite common for those unfamiliar with Western based martial arts to think this way. It's not a moral failing but rather a simple lack of exposure coupled with failing to link concepts. As another poster mentioned no one doubts that kenjutsu is a "Martial Art" though it is (generally) "sword only." By transitive property European arts which are "sword only" are equally "Martial Arts."

To continue, some researchers (myself included) believe that the very term "martial art" itself is of European descent. The phrase "Arts martial" is used in noted historic European fight manuals (sword centric) dating back centuries. This comes from the time when "Art" was generally meant to be a refined skill; i.e. the "art" of hearaldry, reading, and writing or the "art" of carpentry. Certainly the Japanese terms "jutsu" and "do" (body skills and path/way) and the Chinese term "kungfu" (hard work/sustained effort) do not, even losely, translate to either "art" nor "martial."

Please don't be offended by any responses which may (or may not) be in the offing. We Western Martial Artists tend to be a bit touchy with the simple fact that our arts (and their very origin) are often disregarded or completely unknown by the greater martial arts community.

Hopefully discussions such as this on (sub) forums such as this will help to promote that knowledge.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Here too, I've never encountered anyone who considered firearms (useage) a martial art. Now we're not talking Iraq here. I've only my Bureau training, S&W training and visits to my local range buddies to base this on.

What a rare and welcome opportunity to spread the word!

Most people who practice both a more "traditional" martial art as well as firearms for Self Defense (SD) or combat consider their firearms training to be a "martial art" as well. It's very, very common. Take a look at the usenet forum rec.martial-arts as an example of a forum that runneth over with people who consider firearms training a "martial art."

Considering that "martial" (in this context) means roughly "of, deriving from, or having to do with war or combat" and "art" being a refined skill, firearms skill applies just as easily as kyudo/kyujutsu, being essentially exactly the same martial art excepting the substitution of the firerarm for the bow. Continuing that thought, I point you to the Japanese "Martial Art" of Jukendo, which is rifle-with-bayonet fighting (a subset of firearms use). In continuation of the theme, note that, besides the obvious martial and SD application, firearms training, in many cases, bears all the halmarks of any other "traditional" (i.e. oriental) martial art in that qualified and certified istructors teach students, there are numerous bodies organizing various aspects of training such as sport competition and SD targeted yet competitive outlets. Further, many of these organizations issue multiple levels of ranking for acquired and demonstrated skill in the "art" such as Marksman, Pro Marksman, Marksman First Class, and Sharpshooter.

The only thing that it lacks in making it a "martial art" in the minds of some is white pyjamas and calling the rank 'shodan' instead of 'sharpshooter'.

Seriously, you should look into the body skill, and commitment required for SD or Combat related study of the art of firearms use and base your consideration of whether or not its a "martial art" upon that. I think you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised.

Oh, but like a top level set of Kendo gear, bring your wallet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[kwaichang]

Temba, his arms wide...

enough already. :-(

 

[Ahriman]

Right now, I think that we are only using your words to illustrate a typical point of view rather than proving "just how miserably unbearably wrong" you were. :wink1: At least to me your posts indicated that either you understand or at least tolerate our views - and I vote for possibility #1 personally.
...
You simply brought up a common mindset in which I don't think you're personally responsible - if even 18-19th century european fencers spoke very ill of older methods of killing our fellows, how could we presume anyone not involved in these AND coming from a totally different culture or practising an art of aforementioned culture understand this at first glance?
...
Problems (and these ARE personal) I have with those who spread their views as a teacher. Both sides (EMA-WMA) have instructors-masters-teachers who misuse their credit as a teacher, which results in their pupils accepting what they say as true. Some of these misconcenptions can be taken very lightly (like yours), while some of them are close to that kind nonsense which makes me want to pull a dagger. Or a cannon for that matter. :angry: But when I hear someone say even a huge idiocy I remind myself that he/she only says what he/she either saw on TV or heard from an instructor or another practicioner. Thus I give them chance to understand. If they understand or accept, fine, one more defiled mind - if they refuse or say that how could I know, I'm "only banging huge and overweight iron bars together", I get a bit angry. That anger usually ends when I ask them that if I have no art, would he/she please defeat me in free combat...? :EG:
...
lklawson: given the word itself you don't really need any belief in it's european origin... Etymologically it refers to Mars - the god not the planet. So we have a word here that refers to an ancient roman god - why would easterners create a category name which refers to that god from that era? Or why would we europeans name eastern arts after a god long since "dead" then? (BTW, if I recall it well, the term was first mentioned in either the 14th or the 15th century; I may be wrong though)

Sorry for the rather long and seemingly chaotic post.

 

[kwaichang]

At least to me your posts indicated that either you understand or at least tolerate our views - and I vote for possibility #1 personally.

Most kind.:wink1: