Western Martial Arts

[IFAJKD]

There is a lot on here...wow. Sinawali means to weave in tagalog. It does have spanish influence but it has had many different looks. double stick method that averages aprox 6 hits a second. Basic starting chambered. Inward, backhand, backhand. mix high and low strikes.

Bruce Lee would say that it is too bad we place more trust on what we follow than what we create. I believe that the systems put together in the last 30 years are much more effective than most traditional styles. This is why they have been put together. Todays martial artist is such a more highly evolved fighter that we have to continue to cross train. Many don't accept this point of view but are quickly shown if they like. Train in all you can. If your Instructor doesn't like it change Instructors. Find many many many many many many Have fun and keep going.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
Bruce Lee would say that it is too bad we place more trust on what we follow than what we create.

For example, the trust in everything Bruce Lee said. Bruce Lee quotes have truly exploded on this board recently.

I believe that the systems put together in the last 30 years are much more effective than most traditional styles. This is why they have been put together.

I think that this requires the caveat that while some of this is due to modern training methods, some of it is due to making styles that are appropriate to the way people fight today. I think I'd rather use aikido against an opponent coming at me with a samurai sword than Brazilian Ju-Jitsu (not that either would allow a great chance of survival of course). The "evolutionary environment" of an art should be taken into account. Isshin-ryu has a kata oriented towards fighting in a rice paddy at night (or so I was told at the time). Things change.

I would also add that the modern arts have benefitted greatly from the fact that some purists have preserved the traditional arts for them to mix. There would be no Brazilian Ju-Jitsu without Judo, and no Judo without Ju-Jitsu; similarly for JKD and Wing Chun, etc. The modern arts were developed from that base and owe an intellectual debt to them.

 

[IFAJKD]

I don't think that anyone will ever get away from the Bruce. Fact is he started it all with JKD and gaining acceptance for others to alos go that route. There were other systems that did this earlier such as many Filipino systems but Bruce had world recognition going for him at the time and attributes that nobody could or has touched yet.
JKD today is still evolutionary and much has been created so to imply that we follow this same thought is untrue.

Samurai sword vs empty hand...well enough said about that moot point.

 

[Cthulhu]

Heh. If someone was coming at me with a katana and I didn't see it coming from a mile away (not easy to conceal with modern clothing), then I'd say I was in deep poo-poo from the outset. Point taken, though, about the use of aikido for defense.

Cthulhu

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Finally found a link I was looking for to answer Despairbears original request for info....

Historical Armed Combat Association
http://www.thehaca.com/

Very interesting site....must reexamine it sometime myself.


:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Heh. If someone was coming at me with a katana and I didn't see it coming from a mile away (not easy to conceal with modern clothing), then I'd say I was in deep poo-poo from the outset.

Yes, I am reminded of George Dillman quoting his old instructor saying that if you need two hands to block your opponent (as in Seuichin), then you're in the wrong fight.

Point taken, though, about the use of aikido for defense.

Perhaps a better example would have been aikido, ju-jitsu, and iaido techniques for defending oneself while sitting in seiza position. Useful now? Not very. Useful then? Probably. In need of updating? Yes. But deserving of some respect for having been appropriate for their time? Presumably they were effective back then, and so yes.

I believe that there are Filipino kicking systems that include techniques for fighting with sharpened coins and similar implements between one's toes. These might not be useful to us now, but to them then I imagine it was. These may well have been the modern martial arts of their times. Of course we must look to what is useful now, but I think the traditional arts deserve more respect than I feel they sometimes get in the context of modern/mixed martial arts--this is what motivates my comments.

 

[Cthulhu]

I seem to remember an account of a martial art system (Filipino? Southeast Asian?) where the practitioners promptly dropped to the ground in a seated, crouched, or kneeling position after the first move. Apparently the region where the style was developed was terribly muddy due to frequent heavy rains. Since any fighter would invariably go to the ground because of the bad footing, they trained to do that automatically, but in a controlled fashion.

Then again, I could have dreamed this all up in my caffeine-induced frenzy.

Cthulhu

 

[Despairbear]

Fighting from seiza? On one hand you have a point probably not going to happen, on the other hand what if you are attacked while in your car? Swari-waza (sp?) teaches movement with out having to use your feet, very usefull in many situations. Most martial artists today will not be attacked with a sword but the movements of a sword attack can be used against a baseball bat or a bayonet or a pool cue. People who developed what we now call "traditional" martial arts did so in a world where a un-effective martial art meant death, not so in this modern world and that must mean something. To modernize a "traditional" art start with your mind set, little else may be required.




Despair Bear

 

[IFAJKD]

so many factors have gone into the development of different systems. I am not knocking traditional arts. I have tremendous respect for them. I have however come accross too many Instructors who teach such unrealistic technique and present it in an unrealistic manner as to what it is , what it does and it's effectiveness. Since more and more martial artists have come in and challenged that kind of mentality through their mixed MA background, and since it has become more and more acceptable to "cross train", Instructors have had to take a more complete look at what they are teaching. Some didn't change, some changed how they presented and others sought to cross train.
We don't live in a martial envrionment so we don't have to train for a specific enemy. yet many of us have had situations where we had to focus on very applicable techniques. Yet some have never tested what they train.

Traditional arts have many benefits, and I agree that at times it doesn't get the respect it deserves. I have never seen an art where something useful couldn't be drawn from it. Would I study the entire art for this ? No. Yet I do want to understand why others do, given all that is out there. This helps me in many ways. Sometimes the only way to understand some points is to challenge them.
Ultimately, we must remain open and ever the student.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
so many factors have gone into the development of different systems. I am not knocking traditional arts. I have tremendous respect for them.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that you in particular were--it's something that was on my mind from other discussions elsewhere.

[B}Sometimes the only way to understand some points is to challenge them.
Ultimately, we must remain open and ever the student. [/B]

Both of these are good points, and I agree.

It's amazing that after all these centuries there are still innovations to be made! There's enough in martial arts for millenia, so there's certainly enough to keep one interested for a lifetime.

 

[IFAJKD]

I hear that, I have been doing this most my life and I feel I just scratched the surface. I have never stopped feeling like a student.

 

[Icepick]

DespairBear -

Found a site that might interest you.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html

I liked it!

 

[Jay Bell]

I agree with Despair. In Shinden Fudo ryu, the second level of training is all done from Fudoza no Kamae (seated). While I doubt I'll ever be bum rushed while in Fudoza, the same principles and concepts are used when seated in a chair.

In Budo Taijutsu, Sensei often breaks out training guns to show how waza would be done with a gun instead of a sword. Some enjoy living in an age past in their training. Others do what's needed to bridge the gap.

As rare as it is, my life will probably end with never having been cut at with a katana. Baseball bat on the other hand...

 

[arnisador]

Lots of articles:
http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html

 

[arnisador]

www.apacheknife.com (Apache Knife Warrior Arts-GhostDog System)

 

[westernwarrior]

Wow, I haven't been here in a while.

Anyway, in answer to the very first question on this thread, there are a number of living traditions in Western Martial Arts. Here's a list transcribed from the Western Arts mailing list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/western-arts/)

From: " Ken Pfrenger" <kenpfrenger@n...>
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 12:41 pm
Subject: Living traditions the list so far

So far we have:

19th century Classical Fencing - the dueling traditions of 19th century Italy
Dirk fighting (possible)
"Graeco-Roman" wrestling (actually a French reconstruction of ancient Olympic
wrestling, dating from the late 1800s)
Icelandic Glima
Canarian Juego del Palo (many sub-styles)
Portuguese Jogo do Pau
Canne Italiana
Venezuelan Garotte Larense
Belgian bajonette-fechten (possibly)
Italian la Paranza stickfighting
Savate(By this I mean the whole Savate complex, lutte, le canne etc...feel free
to expand on this you savateurs out there)
Breton Gouren
Cornish Wrestling
Western Boxing
Cumberland and Westmoreland wrestling
Highland wrestling
Irish Coraiocht
Swiss Schwingen
Navaja Sevilliano(Sp?)
Lancashire Catchascatchcan wrestling
Singlestick
Uisce Baetha Bata Rince irish stick
Lucha Leonesa http://encina.pntic.mec.es/~jmigue4/index.html
Ranggeln, Austrian wrestling
S'istrumpa, Sardinian wrestling

We'll add Tonys disclaimer her since it makes so much sense:
Some of these would have to be placed
under "living traditions going by the best info. to date" - they may yet
turn out to be re-invented traditions. It can be difficult to set hard and
fast criteria, especially since most living traditions have adapted and
borrowed from other sources over the decades.

Now i know there are alot more...feel free to add to the list.

Slán
Ken

That mailing list is a fantastic resource for information on all WMAs.

On the icepick grip:
There are numerous possible reasons, some have been mentioned like defeating light armor or hitting the gaps between heavy armor. Also, these older WMAs have a tendancy to repeat skills. By that I mean a wrestling move you use unarmed will be re-used in knife fighting, and againt using a longsword as leverage, and again with a pole-arm. The icepick grip is more effective over a wide range of armor and threats than the sabre grip.

On traditional vs. mixed MA:

In reality, I don't think the reconstructed WMAs are understood well enough to be used primarily for self-defense. The study of these arts come mostly from those interested in the time period rather than those looking to fight off an attacker on the street. In time, we will be able to use the skills learned from these arts and modify them for our present-day situations (I have already heard stories of people defending themselves with their trainging in the wrestling or knife-fighting of the time) but for now I think the community is best served by seeking to deeper out understanding and spread the knowledge we gain from the books of the old masters.

 

[arnisador]

There are several ther I don't recognize--I'll have to look around and see what I can find on the web.

 

[jrackley]

I don't think one could classify Tae-Bo as a martial sport since I have yet to see a competition for it. At best, it could be called 'martial art-based fitness'. The few people I've encountered who have taken it have been well aware that Tae-Bo is about as combat effective as a 3-week-old melon rind.

It's a shame, since Blanks was a fairly prominent martial artist at one time.

Cthulhu

Tae-Bo is a good cardio workout!

 

[Livio Girotto]

Hello:

El Juego del Garrote (also known as Garrote Larense) is the venezuelan stick fighting system. Even if it was very popular a century ago, it was almost terminated, because the masters of the art grew old and died, while the young people didn't care much about it. But luckily, twenty years ago, a venezuelan man called Eduardo Sanoja met a peasant who was a Garrote Master, named Mercédez Pérez, who agreed to teach him. Since then, Mr. Eduardo started a movement to rescue that venezuelan tradition, I got involved with that action.

I was lucky enough to become a Mercédez Pérez student sixteen years ago.

If you want to know more about this subject, contact me trought www.garrotelarense.org, or [email protected].

Regards to you all,

Livio Girottoartyon:

 

[Shane Smith]

I have been studying and teaching these methods for years within the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts ( www.thearma.org ) . I am in particular a big fan of Master Ringecks method of unarmoured longsword.