Who is your instructor? Tell me. Tell me NOW!

[Kong Soo Do]

I've been noticing a trend on several boards. If the conversation is getting hot or challenging, one party usually tries to take the thread off topic with, 'and just who is your instructor'? Or, 'what organization do you belong to?' Some are simply trolls looking for some sort of chink in the armor. Some don't know any better. And then you get the usual, 'what...are you afraid of something'. Usually put in to make you look bad and take the thread further off topic (which a lot of the time is their plan anyway).

I feel strongly that someone should stand on their own merits. They shouldn't try to ride the coat tails of someone else. One person may have a well-known and fantastic instructor...and they personally suck as a martial artist. They may belong to a reputable or legimate organization but do dishonorable things. On the otherhand, they may have a no-name instructor but yet be able to whip the crap out of most people. They may belong to a 'questionable' org or even no org and yet be upright people with good character.

It's like you aren't allowed to have an opinion if you don't first list your martial history!?! I think that's crap. My instructor isn't a member here. My organization isn't a member here. I'm a member here. I speak for myself and on my own experience, skill and opinions.

I think it should be that way for everyone. Speak for yourself.

Okay, rant over. I feel better now. :uhyeah:

 

[Chris Parker]

I think it comes down to why it's being asked, though. For instance, we had a member here (JohnEdwards) who claimed to have trained in a Koryu Jujutsu system, and made numerous posts (with that giving him some form of credibility) about what Koryu are like, what traditional Japanese martial arts and instructors are like, and so on... but everything he posted went completely against the experience and understanding of each and every person here who had even a passing familiarity with Koryu and related ideas. So he was asked which Koryu he trained in (was a member of), and he said that there wasn't a name (it was just "Koryu Jujutsu"???), he wouldn't give any details about his instructor, or his system, and so on, as he claimed that we (I) had ulterior motives for asking (?!?!). Really, it was offering him an opportunity to gain some credibility, as his posts didn't help him there... but anyone from outside of Koryu who read them would accept that he knew what he was talking about. So rather than just following him around just to correct every little mistake he made, we tried to find out what what his actual background was.

Then there are other reasons, of course.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Then there are other reasons, of course.

Bingo. It is the 'other' reasons I'm zeroing in on in my rant. I'm in a discussion right now about a TKD school offering (apparently from the flyer) the opportunity to get a HKD BB after a weekend seminar. Lots of people responding to the thread. Those responding don't even have to have a BB in TKD or HKD to have an opinion. They don't need to belong to a specific organization to offer an opinion. So I see it as intentionally trying to divert the thread from the topic when certain folks keep asking, 'who is your instructor' or 'what HKD org do you belong to?'. What does it matter? A member responds to a thread based upon their own experience and/or viewpoint, not their instructors or organizations. Who their instructor is, what they think, the brand of toothpaste they use or what car they drive isn't related to the discussion. Whether the member belongs to an org, what the org is, who runs it, what weight of paper they use in the certificate isn't related to the discussion.

But if you say that you get the inevitible, 'oh, are you afraid to say' or 'you must be hiding something'. No, I'm making the point that it doesn't matter and doesn't have anything to do with the topic and I'm calling you out on trying to hijack the thread because it isn't going the way you'd like it to go or I'm not agreeing with you on the points you want me too.

I'm just cranky this morning I guess :uhyeah:

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I saw that thread....

The question is whether or not they are asking to ascertain what experience the poster is basing their opinion on, or if it's an attempt to discredit the poster rather than deal with their opinion as it stands.

 

[WC_lun]

For many of us in CMA, an instructor's name can tell us a lot. If I know the instructor or have seen his students perform, I'll know some things about the training methodology and concepts the instructor tends to focus on. Yeah, sometimes I'll know if the training was a sham or not too or the real deal. Personally, I do not see why anyone would have a problem sharing who thier instructor was. It should be a source of pride. If not, then perhaps it truly isn't the asking that is the problem. Is this much different in martial arts from other countries?

 

[frank raud]

You also have situations on this board(and others) where someone is touting a technique that is in direct contrast to the art they claim it is from. Recently Zenjael was claiming his partner in a video was doing kouchi gari(from judo) yet his entire description was completely off from how the technique is done. As he claims a soupbowl full of arts that he has trained in throughout his life, it is fair to ask where he learned this, and from whom, as it is not in accordance with Kodokan technique.

 

[elder999]

ON the one hand, I get your point-it can come across as rude, and something of a non sequitir, coming from certain people.

On the other hand, if I represent myself as having knowledge of Kyokushinkai karate, and ranking in same, I should have no hesitation about saying that my teacher was Oyama Shigeru, and who my seniors were-aside from saying that they were legends, anyway :lol:.

Likewise, if I make something of my ranking in Miyama ryu jujutsu, I should be able to name each of my teachers and senior students, good and bad: Gene James, John Sharpe, Antonio Pereira, Roy Goldberg, Miguel Ibarra, and Arthur Steinberger.Ditto daito-ryu.

If I were to talk about my judo background, I'd be remiss in not mentioning Yonezuka sensei, or my dad.

Tae kwon do? Really mostly a "who cares" for me, at this point, but I don't hesitate to offer that info when talking about my tae kwon do origins.

And, Like WCLun says, TCMA make a very big deal of lineage: I'm good friends with some students and teachers whose lineage leads can be traced directly back to Chang Dung Sheng, but it's tainted for mayb of them by just who their teacher is.


Of course, I'm no one of any consequence, martial arts wise-a congenital klutz, and no authority on anything, really. I have opinons, of course, and think I know a few things-most of which are based on my experiences, but I mostly don't need to back them up. People want to know, essentially, what the basis for claims of knowledge are, what pedicree it has-particularly when its a claim related to their associated style. On the other hand, I chined in about sanchin kata, and got interrogated-and that's what Kong Soo Do is referring to-about who my teacher was and what it was I studied.



Oh well. It's the Internet.If it bugs you that much, just ignore them. :lfao:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yeah, I saw that thread....

The question is whether or not they are asking to ascertain what experience the poster is basing their opinion on, or if it's an attempt to discredit the poster rather than deal with their opinion as it stands.

True. But then shouldn't everyone responding to the thread be asked who there instructor is and what org they belong to as well? As I put in the other thread, members responded that don't have any HKD training. Is that okay or does their lack of HKD training invalidate their response. Some didnt' mention whether or not they had HKD training. Shouldn't they be interrogated to ascertain what they're basing their opinion on? This is my point. Does it matter whether my instuctor is Fred or Barney? Fred and Barney isn't here. I'm here. Rather than ask me about them, ask me what I know about HKD. Ask me if I've ever used HKD against a real bad guy. Ask me how long I've studied it. That would give you better insight into 'me'. I could have a cert signed by Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Royce Gracie and the entire Zulu warrior nation...and not know jack about the arts. I could be trained by all of them and still suck at the martial arts. Then again, I could have been trained by Joe Nobody and be one hell of a martial artist.

Either way, none of it has much to do with my opinion of the validity of testing for a HKD BB after a weekends worth of instruction. I can have an opinion about that even without having trained in HKD at all.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent a bit guys.

 

[Steve]

I've been noticing a trend on several boards. If the conversation is getting hot or challenging, one party usually tries to take the thread off topic with, 'and just who is your instructor'? Or, 'what organization do you belong to?' Some are simply trolls looking for some sort of chink in the armor. Some don't know any better. And then you get the usual, 'what...are you afraid of something'. Usually put in to make you look bad and take the thread further off topic (which a lot of the time is their plan anyway).

I feel strongly that someone should stand on their own merits. They shouldn't try to ride the coat tails of someone else. One person may have a well-known and fantastic instructor...and they personally suck as a martial artist. They may belong to a reputable or legimate organization but do dishonorable things. On the otherhand, they may have a no-name instructor but yet be able to whip the crap out of most people. They may belong to a 'questionable' org or even no org and yet be upright people with good character.

It's like you aren't allowed to have an opinion if you don't first list your martial history!?! I think that's crap. My instructor isn't a member here. My organization isn't a member here. I'm a member here. I speak for myself and on my own experience, skill and opinions.

I think it should be that way for everyone. Speak for yourself.

Okay, rant over. I feel better now. :uhyeah:

I don't see any problem with it. The way I see it, if we're face to face, working out, it's pretty easy to stand on one's own merits. But on a bulletin board, it's often necessary to have a little more context. Asking for your background, including your instructors, can be a quick way to do this. Of course, this presumes familiarity with the instructor.

 

[Chris Parker]

True. But then shouldn't everyone responding to the thread be asked who there instructor is and what org they belong to as well? As I put in the other thread, members responded that don't have any HKD training. Is that okay or does their lack of HKD training invalidate their response. Some didnt' mention whether or not they had HKD training. Shouldn't they be interrogated to ascertain what they're basing their opinion on? This is my point. Does it matter whether my instuctor is Fred or Barney? Fred and Barney isn't here. I'm here. Rather than ask me about them, ask me what I know about HKD. Ask me if I've ever used HKD against a real bad guy. Ask me how long I've studied it. That would give you better insight into 'me'. I could have a cert signed by Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Royce Gracie and the entire Zulu warrior nation...and not know jack about the arts. I could be trained by all of them and still suck at the martial arts. Then again, I could have been trained by Joe Nobody and be one hell of a martial artist.

Either way, none of it has much to do with my opinion of the validity of testing for a HKD BB after a weekends worth of instruction. I can have an opinion about that even without having trained in HKD at all.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent a bit guys.

If their background is relevant to the thread, then asking is valid. If they are posting that Hapkido is all about stickfighting and wearing a tutu as a uniform (or anything else that doesn't mesh with known Hapkido methodology), then asking about their background is fine. That doesn't mean that everyone is automatically questioned, though.

If the person posting has no Hapkido background, that's fine as well. But if they represent themselves as having a background, or the thread requires experience in the art, then certainly the question can be asked.

With regard to asking who the instructor is versus what your experience is, that's just a different tact to take. It can provide a different type of information than just asking how long someone's been training. And as to the list of names you provide, they are art-specific, really, so if the name doesn't back up the claim (saying I've trained in BJJ under Royce Gracie - which I have for a seminar - is valid, but claiming to have studied escrima under him is a big red flag).

 

[Steve]

Sometimes it's an easy way to distinguish between actual, practical experience and theoretical experience. Sometimes, a person knows enough information to speak convincingly about a subject on the internet, but they say things eventually that just don't seem right. Asking for their background is a quick way to make this distinction clear for everyone.

In other words, there's a big difference between "I've read/heard/seen," and "I've done."

 

[MJS]

I feel, as others have said, that the reasons for asking will vary. Some are just looking to find out so they can trash talk them, some just general curiosity, some because of claims that others are making. I've mentioned who some of my teachers are, right on this forum, depending on the discussion at hand. I don't make it a habit to post who I train with. I have nothing to brag about. However, if someone asks, I have no secrets.

 

[Steve]

I feel, as others have said, that the reasons for asking will vary. Some are just looking to find out so they can trash talk them, some just general curiosity, some because of claims that others are making. I've mentioned who some of my teachers are, right on this forum, depending on the discussion at hand. I don't make it a habit to post who I train with.

Yeah? Is that because you're scared? Ashamed? What are you hiding?

I have nothing to brag about. However, if someone asks, I have no secrets.

Oh. Nevermind.

 

[MJS]

[/b]yeah? Is that because you're scared? Ashamed? What are you hiding?oh. Nevermind. :d

lol!

 

[JWLuiza]

Asking for training lineage is kosher if one is asking for the wikipedia equivalent of a citation. However it is often used as an Ad Hominem attack or as an argument from authority, both of which are logical fallacies. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate the reason for asking.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Asking for training lineage is kosher if one is asking for the wikipedia equivalent of a citation. However it is often used as an Ad Hominem attack or as an argument from authority, both of which are logical fallacies. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate the reason for asking.

Agreed. And maybe I'm somewhat sensitive to it due to the types of people (read trolls) that have asked in the past. Not to learn more about me, but to try and find some dirt to use. And when there hasn't been any dirt, hell, just make something up. Anything to get the thread off topic or preferably get it closed. That way it goes down the page and out of sight quick because they don't like how the topic has progressed. That's what I'm talking about.

As far as friendly conversation, I'm an open book. Nothing to hide. I've talked about all my instructors at one time or another. But I just can't abide the troll going snooping. Once had a troll post something on one of my instructors and how he was performing a kick. Pretty sarcastic remark, made just to give me a hard time. Of course he didn't actually know this instructor, nor did he take into account his advanced age and disability due to back surgery or that he was doing the best he could with a physical limitation. Nor did he touch on the fact that what was being taught was very sound material. What did his physical limitation on a certain kick have to do with the conversation about the number of katas that are taught in a particular art? Nothing at all.

Anyway, thank you everyone for your input.

 

[WingChunIan]

Aside from genuine curiosity it can be a great way to shut up the trolls. When someone is spouting off as if they are an expert asking simple questions like what is your lineage, how many hours have you trained, fight experience etc can be a great way to seperate the wheat from the chaff. I don't disagree with any of the other comments posted and strongly agree that any opinion posted on here or any other board is that of the poster and not their teacher. If you get asked the question and don't see the relevance then I'd simply post back to that effect explaining why its not relevant and put your antagonist on the back foot by challenging their logic and if needs be flipping the lineage question back to them to demonstrate why it matters.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Kong Soo Do, In almost every post you have made in this thread you have mentioned something that has happened to you or said that you should have been asked about something directly. I must therefor ask is this thread truly about you or your organization or is it about the thread topic.
Now as to the topic of the thread I will agree with what some of the others have said, in that such a question may be asked for a number of reasons: to garner if the person has any true knowledge of the subject, to back up a claim of heritage, to gather information on actual street knowledge where the subject matter could require it, and to just throw the thread off course or anger a poster. All but the last one I mention are good legit reasons for asking for a persons background if a post has been made and may seem questionalble.

 

[miguksaram]

Kong Soo Do, In almost every post you have made in this thread you have mentioned something that has happened to you or said that you should have been asked about something directly. I must therefor ask is this thread truly about you or your organization or is it about the thread topic.

The thread he is talking about was one that he started by posting a link to a seminar where participants who meet certain qualifications could test for a black belt in HKD. The question was asked by me if anyone actually talked to the people in charge of the event for clarification. I figured it would be best to know what the full details instead of just jumping to judging if they are just selling belts. This was something he felt he did not have to do because everything was so clear on a flyer that was posted in an events section of the website that you would have search through the school website in order to even see it. I asked if he was scared of contacting them directly, not because of his martial art background but because he may find out he was wrong about his assumption of what was going on. Then again, it may have confirmed he was right all along.

Now If you read the thread you will see that no one asked him about rank until about page 2 or 3. He was asked this

Are you ranked in hapkido through a hapkido organization (if so, who) or are ranked through the IKSDA?
No value judgement regardless of your answer, but if your hapkido grade is through the IKSDA, then one could ask the same questions of you and you would be in the group that the seminar was aimed towards.

He was even told that he was not being judged on his answer, just someone asking for clarification. The person who asked him, prior to this fiasco has always been a pretty open minded person when asking questions and if you look at his history of posting you will see that. So the whole b.s. of saying that someone was out to dig up dirt or make him look bad is just crap. He avoided the question by asking what does it matter? Others joined in and politely pointed out that sometimes it helps to state your credentials in manners like these. He has even made mention that people are welcome to contact him privately and he would discuss the topic. My question is why not just send a PM to the person who asked the question and simply say "Please keep this private, here are my credentials", then a vast majority of this problem would have disappeared. But no instead it went on. Not saying KSD was the only instigator to cause the flames to rise, but he is certainly no victim either that it seems he is trying to make himself out in this thread..

Now as to the topic of the thread I will agree with what some of the others have said, in that such a question may be asked for a number of reasons: to garner if the person has any true knowledge of the subject, to back up a claim of heritage, to gather information on actual street knowledge where the subject matter could require it, and to just throw the thread off course or anger a poster. All but the last one I mention are good legit reasons for asking for a persons background if a post has been made and may seem questionable.

I agree as well. Usually when I am asking it is because I am trying to get an understanding of how you are developing your opinions. Is it because you actually trained in the art or is it because you took a weekend seminar or is it because you are a huge fan of Samurai Sunday movies on TV.

 

[Buka]

Although I've heard it for some time now, I finally Googled the term "Internet troll".

We used to have a similar animal back in the day. It was a person who read all the Karate magazines, maybe hung around with someone who trained, and seemed to have a need to be noticed. We used to call them *******s.