Who Did Yip Man Learn Stuff From?

[jlq]

KPM,

in Gulao Seui Hueng they call the 12 points (dim, not sik) "Sup Yee Lou" when done as a form...

 

[jlq]

Nobody Important,

Honestly, who's to say that the 3 canonical forms we know as Yongchun today were anything like what was originally taught all those years ago, and that some old man practicing something his father taught in the park isn't actually closer to the truth than we know?

Absolutely!

That is why we can only speak about what the art was like as far as it can reliably be traced - and that is Leung Jan.

In Fatsaan he taught three forms, even to some students in Gulao he did. The Pin San Wing Chun he "created" specifically for Wong Wah Saam...

 

[jlq]

KPM,

Well....unless FSC drastically changed his martial art over the ensuing years! The body structure and mechanics behind Tang Yik Weng Chun and YSK Wing Chun are very different! So perhaps in his old age FSC taught YKS some "odds and ends" to round out his knowledge....but that would not seem very "significant" to me compared to what core biomechanics are being used.

As someone who has some exposure to both of these styles, I think YKS Wing Chun is in some ways a small frame version of Tang Yik's art, but as far as FSC goes, 50 years is a long time... Given his travels in SW China and SE Asia, he might have picked up a lot of different stuff over the years. Also, what you forget is that Tang family art is not from FSC, it goes a couple of generations further back than him. So why should YKS WCK look like Tang Ga Weng Chun (given that FSC learnt from Dai Fa Min Kam, which is a totally different lineage)?

 

[Nobody Important]

Nobody Important,


Thanks the references, much appreciated.

I will look into it as soon as I have time.

As I said, Wing Chun has much more in common with the various other local arts, than many realize.

So It is a great passtime to look into this stuff.





As I explained to you, the name of the form is Shuang Gong Quan, not what you are saying and no, the Zhuang Quan is a totally different form. The former comes from Yang Tian, the latter from Fong Shao Qing - so yes, you are mistaken...





The form you are referring is called "Yong Chun Quan", i.e. that is its proper, original name. At some point someone started calling it " Shiyi Shou", so that is a relatively modern "nickname".

The second section of Fatsaan-type Yong Chun Quan is typically called "Shi Zi Shou" - "Character Ten Hand", not 11.

With those references I want you to keep in mind the context. I mentioned those forms as a point of reference in regards to establishing a common theme and not as proof of Yongchun material being used to create them. Some of those forms have commonalities with one another such as Bai He to Hong Quan or Hong Quan to Yongchun or Yongchun to Bai He. They do not all contain the same material but do have overlap here and there. There is also a common theme with a lot of them and that deals with having at least a partial relationship with the Zhuang and shared techniques. Not that they are specifically Zhuang forms. As I stated earlier I don't believe that there existed that hard line separation between systems back in the day. I simply wanted to illustrate that the Zhuang connotation was a prevalent theme that was being used to describe outlying forms of similar composition in similar styles. Again not establish proof of secret Yongchun material.

Thanks for your clarification on that set.

The Ruan Ji Yun Xiao Lian Tou of my line contains 3 major sections. San Bei Fo (3 Prayers to Buddha), Shiyi Shou (11 Hands) & Hua Quan (Flower Fist). This may not jive with the information youve recieved but that's how the Duan family labels them. Shizi Shou for us is the waving hand section at the end of the opening of the form before San Bei Fo. The Hua Quan section opens with Xiao Lian Tou followed by Da Lian Tou.

 

[Nobody Important]

Good point! A set of San Sik can certainly become a "form" when they are being consistently strung together in the same way. Even in Ku Lo Wing Chun....which is San Sik based, they seem to run the San Sik together back to back for demonstration purposes and refer to it as the "Dai Lim Tao" form. I still think it possible that the Tang Yik "Weng Chun Kuen" form may have started out as San Sik that were later put together as a "form." It has 11 sections, each separated by a pause bringing the fists back to the hips, and each section has a distinct 2 man drill that goes with it to teach its application. This would be exactly how Ku Lo Wing Chun would function if you chose to string the San Sik together and teach them as a single form only. And for that matter.....most versions of Wing Chun's "Siu Lim Tao" form could be said to be a series of San Sik strung together because, again....each section is separated by a pause drawing the fists back to the chest. Each section can be practiced and applied independently. I've also read, but don't know how true it is, that "ancestral" White Crane in the distant past was taught as a series of San Sik rather than with longer forms. It could be that the more modern White Crane forms are San Sik strung together. But I don't know enough about White Crane to say.

But it can be a confusing distinction and really comes down to how the specific lineage is practicing and teaching the material......as San Sik.....as a single form....or maybe even both as in the case of Ku Lo Wing Chun!

Agreed! From my understanding the original White Crane system was indeed a system of Sanshi. This is relayed in several branches of Shizi Hou Men Jingang Quan and it's branches of Bei Xizang Lama Bai He Pai, Xiajia Quan & Mizong Lama Pai as well as in multiple branches of Fujian Bai He. Now no one can agree on the number of Sanshi as I heard it was 12, 24, 28, 48, 54 and 64, lol. Pick one I guess. Personally I use 28.

 

[Nobody Important]

Nobody Important,



Absolutely!

That is why we can only speak about what the art was like as far as it can reliably be traced - and that is Leung Jan.

In Fatsaan he taught three forms, even to some students in Gulao he did. The Pin San Wing Chun he "created" specifically for Wong Wah Saam...

Something that I do find curious is that the one thing most Yongchun branches have in common is Xiao Lian Tou, beyond that one form it can vary greatly as to what other forms if any are also included. Chen Qiao and Biao Zhi aren't a given to be included. For me that brings up some questions about those 2 forms.

 

[jlq]

Nobody Important,

Something that I do find curious is that the one thing most Yongchun branches have in common is Xiao Lian Tou, beyond that one form it can vary greatly as to what other forms if any are also included. Chen Qiao and Biao Zhi aren't a given to be included. For me that brings up some questions about those 2 forms.

Hm...

In Fatsaan, all branches have Saam Tou Kuen.

Even the Jeung Bo lineage which originally just had loose techniques has the three forms nowadays.

The only lineage I know of which has just SLT is the Yuen Chai Wan people in Vietnam - and then of course the Cho family, but their SLT is quite different from the "standard" Fatsaan Wing Chun SLT form...

Gulao Wing Chun has a "SLT", and no CK or BZ, but this is the name of one of the 12 Dim, not a Tou Lou.

 

[Nobody Important]

Nobody Important,



Hm...

In Fatsaan, all branches have Saam Tou Kuen.

Even the Jeung Bo lineage which originally just had loose techniques has the three forms nowadays.

The only lineage I know of which has just SLT is the Yuen Chai Wan people in Vietnam - and then of course the Cho family, but their SLT is quite different from the "standard" Fatsaan Wing Chun SLT form...

Gulao Wing Chun has a "SLT", and no CK or BZ, but this is the name of one of the 12 Dim, not a Tou Lou.

Don't look at just what comes out of Foshan. I'm looking at Yongchun and all its incarnations as a whole. There are basivally two camps, one that passes on a 3 form theory and another that passes on a 1 form theory. Most lines descending from, say, Huang Hua Bao have the 3 sets but not all. Most lines descending from someone else have only one set, Xiao Lian Tou or some incarnation there of. It's just something I find interesting, especially when looking at claims of anything beyond Liang Dan's generation. It just seems to me, that around this time that the most prevalent aspect of Yongchun was a "Xiao Lian Tou" concept and that anything else was secondary. Im just musing outloud here.

 

[KPM]

KPM,

in Gulao Seui Hueng they call the 12 points (dim, not sik) "Sup Yee Lou" when done as a form...

Ok. Thanks for the correction! We really should be keeping a running list of all of the things that Jim told me wrong. After all, he thinks he is the fount of all knowledge concerning Ku Lo Wing Chun!

 

[Nobody Important]

Gentlemen,

With regret I am going to have to bow out of this conversation for a while as I have some pressing business matters which I need to attend to.

I want to thank you for a very fruitful discussion and to apologize for my earlier ranting.

Please continue on without me as I won't be available again until somtime in October.

 

[APL76]

APL76,

Thanks.



Another question, if you don't mind.

Who in the Gongjaau Wing Chun community is/was an authentic disciple of SN and is qualified to represent his teachings in your opinion?

Far too a political a question I'm sorry to say. Besides, I only know the names of a few of Sum Nung's disciples and I only know one of them personally (my sifu). But I will put it this way: Since Sum Nung died it seems he retained his ability to take disciples and teach wing chun, even in death, I doubt even Chuck Norris is that good. But more seriously, Sigung only had a very small number of disciples in his lifetime. He taught probably thousands, but actual disciples who have gone through the tea ceremony, and then ones who spent enough time with him to learn all of the system (all forms and accompanying material) are very few. Look at the wing chun. If its sloppy, no precision, slow with no explosive power, no softness, no stability in the stance, and if it looks a lot like the wing chun Sum Nung did in public then I'd be sceptical. Sum Nung, by all accounts was a hard task master and didn't tolerate sloppiness.

 

[APL76]

Well....unless FSC drastically changed his martial art over the ensuing years! The body structure and mechanics behind Tang Yik Weng Chun and YSK Wing Chun are very different! So perhaps in his old age FSC taught YKS some "odds and ends" to round out his knowledge....but that would not seem very "significant" to me compared to what core biomechanics are being used.

FSC didn't just teach Yuen Kay san and co odds and ends, and it seems that at his (FSC's) and the red boat generation that they probably knew both wing chun and weng chun, after all, the red boat generation actually had contact with both Leung Bok Chao and Ji Shim. My sifu at least is, it seems, coming to the idea that wing chun and weng chun are probably...… siblings? at least related and many people early on in wing chun history knew both and had a preference one way or the other which was reflected in what they taught. And additionally that during the years after the change from the Ming to the Ching dynasty when Fat San was full of martial artists the two groups probably communicated their systems to one another. So its looking like he at least is seeing it as I stated it earlier, that its more a spectrum and we are somewhere along it between wing chun and weng chun. He recently related stuff from Sum Nung that a certain wing chun guy in Fat San was being challenged (not to fight but to explain himself) by both sides of the thing over whether he taught wing chun or weng chun as it seems he had mixed them up in some sort of underhanded way (probably not crediting where he learned stuff).

And as stated by jlq, I think it was, there were many years, and years of substantial experience, between him teaching what has gone on to be Tang Yik weng chun and Yuen Kay san wing chun. Besides, people from Sum Nung through to his disciples, and even second generation (from SN) like me know what the material he passed on to Yuen Kay San was. There weren't odds and ends, it was a substantial and important element of wing chun, possibly (and this is not to play down what YKS learned from Fok Bo Chun) the stuff that really makes Yuen Kay San wing chun stand out; he was after all the number one wing chun guy, and one of the best martial artists of his day.

On top of that there is a well documented lineage coming from Fung Sui Ching from the time he taught YKS and YCW, I have seen it (though I cant read it) my Sifu had one of my students read it (she is a native speaker of Cantonese and reads Chinese though he had to help her out in places), it list all the people that FSC taught at that time, and there were many (really YKS and YCW did the teaching under FSC's supervision, they were the only ones who learned directly from him for the most part as far as I know).

 

[wckf92]

As far as Lo Kwai Wing Chun goes, I was told by one of its practitioners that they have a 4th form called Baat Gwa that came from Leung Jan. I realize that Fut Sau Wing Chun is a newer branch but thought that it was intetesting that their 4th form is called Siu Baat Gwa and claim it to be original to the system. I have never seen either version but would like to, I have lots of questions.

Never heard of Lo Kwai WC...but have heard of Fut Sau. I'd be interested to learn more about both; and their Siu Baat Gwa.

 

[Jicjeung]

Who knows?

But why does he need to update it, now I told you the information?



It seems like you are not willing to accept what I told you?

>>>I am sorry but I don't seem to understand what you are saying. It is my understanding Leung Jan retired to Gulou (Kuloo) village and taught there until he passed away. You seemed to dispute this (unless I read you wrong?). I offered an article by someone in the pin sun lineage who makes many trips tp visit including training with Fung Chun when he was alive. You then pointing out the article was too old (2007). I then offered a blog by Mr. Baniecki (Who with his wife has also made many trips to train in the lineage with his wife) and essentially says the same thing. You then said I should read Jim Roselundo but the first article was written by Jim in 2007....so pardon my confusion.

Regards

 

[Jicjeung]

All good, as I've said before (and will say again) all of these are just legends anyways. Every WC origin/ancestor myth should be taken with enough grains of salt for 100+ bowls of soup.

The interesting thing about Li Wen/Man Mao is that I've never really found much that points to him being a martial artist, though some people have claimed he knew one of the 7 or so versions of white crane that would have been available around that time. For me, I find it plausible that there was a separate cell under the same rebellion of which someone of some (but not the highest) status knew wing chun (Hung Gun Biu). As Li Wen Mao was a pretty big figurehead, I think it probably would have been more well known if he was a wing chun expert/creator. That even the white crane thing isn't 100% certain makes me doubt the connection, as most of what my line has about Hung Gun Biu talks about his fighting ability and what he contributed to our system, as well as his role as a Hung Gwan of that particular revolutionary cell.

Also, this is the same time that Wong Wa Bo was learning/had learnt Wing Chun, isn't it strange we'd be certain that some random actor knew wing chun but not someone who was a leader of a famous uprising?

>>>There is actually historic records to Li Wen mao being a White crane stylist via both Ching and English accounts during the red Turban uprising (see dian Murray's work and others one English account mentions him as a leader being an emaciated opium addict however! However what is curious is that Li and his crew in the revolt hooked up with Chen Kai and retreated to Guangxi where they made a final stand before defeat. This would have been right around the time Wong wah bo and leung Yi tai were teaching leung jan so apparently they did not take place in the revolt with Li and his opera troops or broke off from it.
Regards

 

[Jicjeung]

I agree, hell, a lot of these characters in these legends were reputed to be salt merchants at one time, lol. Like I said earlier, it's quite plausible that Hung Gun Biu was a nickname of some fellow named Biu who was a member of the Red Turban Army who practiced Wing Chun. It's also quite plausible that Lee Man Mao gets credit simply because he was the figure head of the Rebellion, or, on the flip side, that he isn't recognized because he lost the Rebellion and was killed. Who knows and ultimately it doesn't matter. FWIW there is a lineage of White Crane that has him listed as a practitioner, but I honestly don't remember which one, plus I dont put a lot of faith into lineage charts. Someone had written an article that touched base on it in regards to the Rebellion as well but that was years ago. There is information floating around out there, but as with most things Wing Chun, it's unsubstantiated. Personally, I like the White Crane narrative just because I have experience there and have witnessed the similarities, but that doesn't make me right by any stretch of the imagination. Youve got a well rounded system, with soild theory and faithful leadership, who can ask for anything more?

>>>I agree many possilities, I do not personally think Li wen mao was sole source of creation for Wing Chun but may have had influence. Another interesting character was a man named Liang Pei you. The secret societies did not initially discriminate as to membership and did much to make sure their members were trained in martial arts Hakka and Punti both shared in membership and this could be when Wing Chun appears to hakka like as opposed to other Hung Mun. After his village was attacked Liang became very anti Hakka and he became a ferocious red turban leader who attacked hakka settlements in the Hakka-Punti war. I have to wonder if he is not the Leung Bok Chau so often referenced but we will likely never know for sure!

 

[Jicjeung]

Nobody Important,



The ChaN Yu Min lineage in Seundak passes on a lot of things which are very much at odds with the Wing Chun Pai in Fatsaan.

Are you familiar with the CYM lineage tree and history?

From the perspective of Fatsaan Wing Chun only about 25 percent of what the Chan Yu Min people do is Wing Chun.

Legends and stories aside - and the fact that Seundak Siulam Weng Chun is excellent Gong Fu, IMHO - if we make a technical comparison between Fatsaan Wing Chun and Seundak Weng Chun, it is clear that there are some blatant and massive differences.

>>>If I may, I believe their are only massive differences due to the added material. Over the years and on visits to my mothers relatives I like to take the opportunity to visit different wing/weng chun families, I have been told two different stories in regard to this, the first was that all this material was secret passed and only passed from Chan wah to son to keep it in family. I was very interested in the lineage but not an official student so I believe at the time I got "the official story" LOL Later becoming good friends with a student in the lineage I was told something very interesting quite candidly although I am rather far away these days we still correspond via email to this day. Anyway, Fook Fu was added after the alleged exchange between Wong Fei Hung and Chan Wah Shun to add another dimension to training (as I mentioned in an earlier post). The Sei Mun is performed both by itself and in connection directly after SLT (when it is done in this fashion the combined sets are then called Siu Lien Kuen).
The set contains butterfly palms and arrow punch which some believe date back to older wing chun kuen or prototype of wing chun if you will. The set came into Chan yiu min wing chun Via Chan yiu min wife Li miu hin (who I was told was a great great granddaughter of the famous Li yousan (The alleged creator of the 5 forms Tiger, leopard, snake, crane and Dragon) these sets "some claim" was the actual source of 5 Pattern Hung Kuen (enter Fok bo Chun btw who was alleged to be a master of Snake and crane sets). Chan Yiu Min's wife was quite an expert and often taught classes both in Guangxi and shunde and was expert in her Li family Crane set. She is the one who brought in Sei Mun (very old Li family set along with Hung sha Cheung (red Sand Hand) another old Li family set. This was considered quite acceptable as some believe privately but quite sincerely (but no proof) that this is symbolism of the Mythical Ng Mui ( Five Plum or less obscure 5 sets of Li) with Snake and crane being the predominant source. Other sets were added such as bench etc...for commercial purposes by some seeking grow school. Please don't shoot the messenger if you don't agree, I am just passing on what is told.

Best wishes

 

[Jicjeung]

Sorry for the late responses, School is back in session so I have been very busy but looking forward to retire in 3 years so I can focus on my passion of wing chun kuen! LOL

Regards to all

 

[Jicjeung]

Btw in regard to original post I believe Ip man's wing chun in Hong Kong was simply the product of his education and thinking in terms of simplifying wing chun kuen that he learned down to it's core elements. While Chan Yiu Min lineage over time added to curriculum Ip man (as a product of his times and thoughts on the Goushu movement) whittled down (though some say over simplified) the wing chun he learned from Ng Chun so (primarily) into what we have today focusing on core elements like structiure. Chan wah shun lineage via Chan yiu Min (whom they asset taught Ip man more then Ng Chun so (though it is doubtful to me as he moved to Guangxi then later back) has very similar core forms but more footwork seen directly in for particularly their Chum Kiu. I believe Ip man had students work more in place on structural understanding and this )I believe is clearly seen in the progressing of teaching from Foshan (kwok fu and Lun Kai) to Hong kong lineages. It does not make it better or worse just different for instructional purposes. Here is some footage of a Russian friend during visit training Chan yiu Min lineage (he starts with Fok Fu) but shortly after you can see students (around 4:30 mark doing slt and bits of chum kiu etc...) FWIW

Enjoy...or not? LOL

Regards to all

 

[jlq]

>>>I am sorry but I don't seem to understand what you are saying. It is my understanding Leung Jan retired to Gulou (Kuloo) village and taught there until he passed away. You seemed to dispute this (unless I read you wrong?). I offered an article by someone in the pin sun lineage who makes many trips tp visit including training with Fung Chun when he was alive. You then pointing out the article was too old (2007). I then offered a blog by Mr. Baniecki (Who with his wife has also made many trips to train in the lineage with his wife) and essentially says the same thing. You then said I should read Jim Roselundo but the first article was written by Jim in 2007....so pardon my confusion.

This information is old...

I already explained it.

Jim is a good friend of mine and he has done a bunch of research since he first wrote that article - ask him about it, and he see what he says...



As far as Mr. Baniecki goes... "Many times to China"... And "training in that lineage"... So that should lend what he says more credence? They basically went there on a holiday trip and spent a few days in Saaping...

Saaping is just about 90 mins from my home and I know few sifus there quite well, so I go there quite often and have heard quite a few stories over the years.

So, yes... The information in those articles are not correct, Leung Jan did not pass away in Gulao Seui Heung / Dongbin Cun.