Yip Man's curriculum changes

[lklawson]

I have. It's the actual fact that VT's LSDD does not exist in any style of Western Boxing.

Poppycock! Simultaneous attack and defense is an important element to nearly every martial system which employs linear attacks. In Western based systems, it's usually referred to as a Single Time Counter, Single Time Defense, or Single Time Riposte.

At this point your stubborn insistence upon personal ignorance is plainly a choice. None are so blind as those who will not see.

I'm not sure which is more amusing, your willful ignorance or your insistence that only your version of WC contains an extremely basic, and common, tactic. What else does your WC have that no one else does? Punches? Kicks? Aiming for the nose or the solar plexus? Nut shots and eye-pokes?

You're on the Wing Chun subforum just to troll then?

Perhaps in your zeal to comment on martial arts you are ignorant of your memory might be, um, "compromised," so I'll remind you that I was invited to this conversation.

I never said there aren't any striking similarities, but LSDD as defined in YMVT does not exist in any Western Boxing.

Yes, yes, we're all aware that you're willing to show your ignorance about pre-Marquess boxing.

 

[lklawson]

Boxing Shmoxing! I don't know squat about early bare-knuckle boxing except from old pictures ...which do look a lot like Wing Chun.

Seems like they ought to look alike ...seeing as they were both trying to accomplish pretty much the same thing. You know, parallel evolution and all...with or without actual cross fertilization.

Which, to be honest, is a very plausible answer. OTOH, it's far less fun than watching someone get all hot-n-bothered by the mere suggestion.

Anyway, Kirk, I'm actually more interested in any opinion you might have the parallels between WC and thrusting sword arts in HEMA. Way back I had a brief introduction to modern fencing, and then later a chance to try some historical rapier work. I found a lot of conceptual similarities, especially using linear deflections to simultaneously defend and attack in a single movement.

Honestly, there are going to be a crap-ton of similarities because, frankly, there are only so many ways to engage and deflect an incoming attack while simultaneously attacking. Unless Chinese arms and elbows have more joints than European ones and unless the Dao, Jian, or <ahem> "Staff" somehow use alternate physics than in Europe (please let it be Star Trek physics, please, please please!), then similar attacks are going to, by necessity, result in similar defenses and similar strategies.

It wasn't particularly uncommon for Western Boxing, in particular pre-Marquess and transitional boxing styles, to be thought of as "Fencing with Fists." The Straight Left and How to cultivate It, for instance, goes on at length about the similarities to linear sword fighting and Outfighting based linear-heavy boxing.

Oh and BTW, that's what LFJ was referring to with LSDD. Abbreviating the Cantonese term for simultaneous defense and attack. Why he expects everybody to recognize that acronym is beyond me. No matter.
.

It's still entertaining.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[KPM]

It wasn't particularly uncommon for Western Boxing, in particular pre-Marquess and transitional boxing styles, to be thought of as "Fencing with Fists." The Straight Left and How to cultivate It, for instance, goes on at length about the similarities to linear sword fighting and Outfighting based linear-heavy boxing.

It's still entertaining.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Also good to point out to everyone that Bruce Lee had that title and several other "old school" boxing books in his library. Some of the stuff he wrote about in "Tao of JKD" and other books came right out of Jim Driscoll's works. One might even say that Bruce's whole idea of making the lead hand a "power punch" and the main weapon for JKD was something he picked up from Driscoll!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Poppycock! Simultaneous attack and defense is an important element to nearly every martial system which employs linear attacks.

And in many which employ circular or spiral methods. It's a fairly universal concept, though it appears more common in the styles with more linear methods.

 

[Jsunlx]

Hey LFJ.....rather than just arguing with Kirk, how about answering my question???

Hey KPM, how about answering my questions? How often and for how long did you train with Jim Roselando? How often and for how long did you train with Mark? You claim to be an instructor in Pin Sun, but how much time did you actually spend training with your instructors?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey KPM, how about answering my questions? How often and for how long did you train with Jim Roselando? How often and for how long did you train with Mark? You claim to be an instructor in Pin Sun, but how much time did you actually spend training with your instructors?

What, precisely, does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

 

[Jsunlx]

What, precisely, does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

It's hypocritical to press people to answer questions when you don't answer them yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's hypocritical to press people to answer questions when you don't answer them yourself.

Only if both sets of questions are relevant to the discussion.

 

[geezer]

It's hypocritical to press people to answer questions when you don't answer them yourself.

This seems like a separate discussion. I know KPM has said that he has experience in Pin Sun along with other branches/approaches, but I never heard him say he represented anybody other than himself. So I fail to see the relevance here. Moreover, "fraud busting" and hounding people from thread to thread over unrelated topics is against the forum rules here. So, let's get back on topic.

 

[KPM]

Hey KPM, how about answering my questions? How often and for how long did you train with Jim Roselando? How often and for how long did you train with Mark? You claim to be an instructor in Pin Sun, but how much time did you actually spend training with your instructors?

Hey, how about telling us just who you are? You came onto this forum as a new member and your only post was to ask probing questions of me. So not knowing anything about you, I chose not to answer your questions. I don't know you or anything about you. You didn't introduce yourself or explain why you were interested in these questions. So why should I answer them?

 

[KPM]

It's hypocritical to press people to answer questions when you don't answer them yourself.

You know nothing about his forum, or this discussion in which I asked for LFJ's response. You are in no position to be calling anyone a "hypocrite." So you really expect me to be willing to just answer your probing questions??? You are not off to a good start!

 

[lklawson]

And in many which employ circular or spiral methods. It's a fairly universal concept, though it appears more common in the styles with more linear methods.

True enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Nobody Important]

Seems to be quite the influx of new users trolling the forum. Could they be someone we all know and love in disguise? Perhaps someone who was banned recently?

 

[LFJ]

Poppycock! Simultaneous attack and defense is an important element to nearly every martial system which employs linear attacks. In Western based systems, it's usually referred to as a Single Time Counter, Single Time Defense, or Single Time Riposte.

At this point your stubborn insistence upon personal ignorance is plainly a choice. None are so blind as those who will not see.

I'm not sure which is more amusing, your willful ignorance or your insistence that only your version of WC contains an extremely basic, and common, tactic. What else does your WC have that no one else does? Punches? Kicks? Aiming for the nose or the solar plexus? Nut shots and eye-pokes?

Again, what you're talking about is not LSDD as defined in YMVT.

LSDD is not a tactic or technique, but an nonthinking effect of how we engage the center.

No style of WB behaves or functions like this despite having some one-off techniques that accomplish, albeit in a very different way, single-time counters.

It is not the same at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seems to be quite the influx of new users trolling the forum. Could they be someone we all know and love in disguise? Perhaps someone who was banned recently?

Seems the latest has at least come in with an existing agenda, and knowledge of at least one member.

 

[LFJ]

Hey LFJ.....rather than just arguing with Kirk, how about answering my question???

I'm not coming back to this again

What I think about the possible reasons for diversions between YM and Mainland systems has been made clear numerous times throughout this thread, yet you ended up dishonestly concluding the exact opposite of what I joined this thread to say in the first place!

You did this with the ill-intent to make my position look as unbelievable and indefensible as possible at a time when I was leaving on travel and could not correct it.

I have no interest in engaging further with dishonest discussion partners like this. The answer is in the thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, what you're talking about is not LSDD as defined in YMVT.

LSDD is not a tactic or technique, but an nonthinking effect of how we engage the center.

No style of WB behaves or functions like this despite having some one-off techniques that accomplish, albeit in a very different way, single-time counters.

It is not the same at all.

You seem so certain...

 

[DanT]

What's LSDD? I mean I know LSD, but that's for a different discussion.

 

[LFJ]

You seem so certain...

Because I am certain. The problem is Kirk doesn't know YMVT and makes the same uninformed assumptions as the author of the article he posted.

 

[Juany118]

Boxing Shmoxing! I don't know squat about early bare-knuckle boxing except from old pictures ...which do look a lot like Wing Chun.

Seems like they ought to look alike ...seeing as they were both trying to accomplish pretty much the same thing. You know, parallel evolution and all...with or without actual cross fertilization.

Anyway, Kirk, I'm actually more interested in any opinion you might have the parallels between WC and thrusting sword arts in HEMA. Way back I had a brief introduction to modern fencing, and then later a chance to try some historical rapier work. I found a lot of conceptual similarities, especially using linear deflections to simultaneously defend and attack in a single movement.

Oh and BTW, that's what LFJ was referring to with LSDD. Abbreviating the Cantonese term for simultaneous defense and attack. Why he expects everybody to recognize that acronym is beyond me. No matter.
.

I thought exactly the same thing. My first Martial art was almost 8 years of Olympic fencing (saber and foil) in high school and college. The first time I did a huen sau into a punch I thought "I just did a riposte?" and while you keep an upright structure the idea of using forward footwork as part of the power generation for a straight punch immediately reminded me of thrusting with a foil.