Yip Man's curriculum changes

[KPM]

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KPM's history is garbled.IM pole usage is not related to hung kuen.
There is coninuity in IM's development of wing chun.

Hey, its not my history! LFJ is the one that showed that Hung Kuen pole form and said it was the same as Ip Man's! Not me!!

 

[KPM]

I still think it was weird, that Hazardi guy was in Holland for 15 years and he didnt understand dutch when I wrote him a message......

Yeah, I'm pretty sure both Hazardi and Dale80 were Guy B in disguise!

 

[Juany118]

Ah! Welcome back LFJ! I hope your trip went well!

But I am confused. Can you explain exactly what it is that you DO believe? Because all through this thread you have been somewhat vague and have avoided just coming right out and stating clearly what your theory actually is!

You have said that YMVT was developed entirely from the pole and knives, and that this way of development applies only to YMVT. Yet then you turn around and say that YM did not create any of his VT. So exactly who created it???

I would like this answered as well because we really have only one of three possible answers here because of the differences between YMWC and the Main Land Branches...

1. YMWC is the product of some secret mainland WC lineage that no one else has public ally passed down.

2. As has been passed down by some of YM students, he never planned of teaching WC/VT so when he designed his curriculum it was founded in what he had been taught BUT passed on the art he had made his own.

3. If you believe the Leung Bik tale he combined what he had originally learned with new training under Bik.

Number 1 is not a defensible argument. How do you produce evidence of such a "secret teaching."

Numbers 2 and 3 in essence amount to YM inventing his own WC/VT. I think sometimes we forget how memory and the creative process come together though and read too much into "invented." As a conceptual Martial Art you can maintain the same principles, concepts and techniques overall but you leave you own unique mark upon it based on our unique physical, mental and emotional make up. If you do not plan on teaching yet decades after you last formally trained you find yourself teaching, it is this personalized Art you are going to pass on. You didn't invent it from whole cloth, you simply refined what was taught to you.

 

[Vajramusti]

I would like this answered as well because we really have only one of three possible answers here because of the differences between YMWC and the Main Land Branches...

1. YMWC is the product of some secret mainland WC lineage that no one else has public ally passed down.

2. As has been passed down by some of YM students, he never planned of teaching WC/VT so when he designed his curriculum it was founded in what he had been taught BUT passed on the art he had made his own.

3. If you believe the Leung Bik tale he combined what he had originally learned with new training under Bik.

Number 1 is not a defensible argument. How do you produce evidence of such a "secret teaching."

Numbers 2 and 3 in essence amount to YM inventing his own WC/VT. I think sometimes we forget how memory and the creative process come together though and read too much into "invented." As a conceptual Martial Art you can maintain the same principles, concepts and techniques overall but you leave you own unique mark upon it based on our unique physical, mental and emotional make up. If you do not plan on teaching yet decades after you last formally trained you find yourself teaching, it is this personalized Art you are going to pass on. You didn't invent it from whole cloth, you simply refined what was taught to you.

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You can believe what you want. Ip Man's wing chun is awesome and most
using his name were not with him for long. a few got personal instruction.

 

[Juany118]

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You can believe what you want. Ip Man's wing chun is awesome and most
using his name were not with him for long. a few got personal instruction.

I am not making any judgement or believing in any specific origin sir. It is indeed an awesome MA. I am simply saying that, since YMWC has differences from the other lineages I have seen, one way or another refinements were made for some reason that now permits us to declare YM's WC/VT its own unique Lineage of WC.

 

[Vajramusti]

I am not making any judgement or believing in any specific origin sir. It is indeed an awesome MA. I am simply saying that, since YMWC has differences from the other lineages I have seen, one way or another refinements were made for some reason that now permits us to declare YM's WC/VT its own unique Lineage of WC.

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I am not sure what exactly you are saying. I don't want to belabor the point.

 

[wingerjim]

It must be taken into account that students can only say what they learned, but not what they didn't learn.

In YMVT, the pole and knives are too deeply related to the empty hand method and its training system to not have been part of its conception. Highly unlikely that YM created them himself long after the empty hand method had been developed.

I agree in that those likely were not added by YM, but certainly YM changes some items. We know he even changes items from his earliest Hong Kong students to his later ones, so it would seem reasonable to beleive he also changes other items before he arrived in HK. The swords are clearly Buddhist of origin based on historical records but who added them to WC is a mystery. The story is that the long pole came from the Junk Boat but again no proof. The more important thing is that we just do not know and the answer, if it exists, is somewhere in China awaiting discovery.

 

[Vajramusti]

1. Poles and double swords were just used objects in the South China world.
2. Not an issue of change. Ip Man used them in unique ways in his wing chun.
3. Swords Buddhist in origin/ I don't know hos you came to that conclusion.

 

[lklawson]

No. As I said, the author of the article you posted doesn't know what LSDD is. You make the same assumption as he.

LSDD in YMVT refers specifically to dual-function in a single limb, the unique skill of VT, not just two arms working together in a "single-time counter".

It doesn't exist in any style of Western Boxing.

Cark. To be blunt, you don't know what you are talking about. Single Time Counters are not limited to "two arms working together." The most basic example, which exists both in boxing and in fencing, is a linear punch/thrust which parries off an incoming linear attack while, at the same time, directing that punch/thrust into the opponent.

Again, the simple fact that you do not know about this exceptionally basic technique means that you are not qualified to make the comparison.

You should quit while your behind but somehow I doubt you will.

 

[LFJ]

Again, the simple fact that you do not know about this exceptionally basic technique means that you are not qualified to make the comparison.

LSDD is not a one-off technique.

It's an automatic result of how we engage the central line at all times throughout an exchange.

Western Boxing doesn't function like this at all.

 

[lklawson]

LSDD is not a one-off technique.

It's an automatic result of how we engage the central line at all times throughout an exchange.

Western Boxing doesn't function like this at all.

More evidence that you don't have any basis to make comparisons on any style of boxing. Remember how I wrote that you wouldn't quit while you are behind? I must be prescient. But hey, keep digging that hole.

 

[LFJ]

More evidence that you don't have any basis to make comparisons on any style of boxing. Remember how I wrote that you wouldn't quit while you are behind? I must be prescient. But hey, keep digging that hole.

Good post, .

There is no style of boxing that engages the center as VT.

To say VT's LSDD came from Western Boxing is retarded.

 

[Vajramusti]

Good post, .

There is no style of boxing that engages the center as VT.

To say VT's LSDD came from Western Boxing is retarded.

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I don't know what LSDD stands for- but VT does not come from western boxing.

 

[lklawson]

Good post, .

I'm glad you recognize it.

There is no style of boxing that engages the center as VT.

More evidence that you really shouldn't talk about boxing due to your obvious ignorance of the topic.

To say VT's LSDD came from Western Boxing is retarded.

Feel free to refute the assertion with actual facts which extend beyond a fairy tale story which includes monks and spurned lovers. Here, use this space: _______________________________________________

 

[lklawson]

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I don't know what LSDD stands for- but VT does not come from western boxing.

Personally, I don't care either way, to be perfectly honest with you. This is mostly because I don't give a fat fiddlers fart about Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, or any of the other elements of the art or its petty internal squabbles. But I do find it amusing to watch the ocasional WC guy go into hysterics at the mere suggestion that western pugilism actually spawned WC while blindly accepting the even less verifiable story of Ng Mui.

I find it even more entertaining to watch people who are obviously ignorant about pre-Marquess boxing claim that there aren't any striking similarities.

 

[KPM]

Ah! Welcome back LFJ! I hope your trip went well!

But I am confused. Can you explain exactly what it is that you DO believe? Because all through this thread you have been somewhat vague and have avoided just coming right out and stating clearly what your theory actually is!

You have said that YMVT was developed entirely from the pole and knives, and that this way of development applies only to YMVT. Yet then you turn around and say that YM did not create any of his VT. So exactly who created it???

 

[Vajramusti]

I'm glad you recognize it.

More evidence that you really shouldn't talk about boxing due to your obvious ignorance of the topic.

Feel free to refute the assertion with actual facts which extend beyond a fairy tale story which includes monks and spurned lovers. Here, use this space: _______________________________________________

Best ignored

 

[LFJ]

Feel free to refute the assertion with actual facts which extend beyond a fairy tale story which includes monks and spurned lovers.

I have. It's the actual fact that VT's LSDD does not exist in any style of Western Boxing.

You have only attempted to refute this with things that are not LSDD.

I don't give a fat fiddlers fart about Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, or any of the other elements of the art or its petty internal squabbles.

You're on the Wing Chun subforum just to troll then?

But I do find it amusing to watch the ocasional WC guy go into hysterics at the mere suggestion that western pugilism actually spawned WC while blindly accepting the even less verifiable story of Ng Mui.

Strawman.

I don't accept any unsubstantiated origin story, and don't even know anyone who takes the NM story literally.

I find it even more entertaining to watch people who are obviously ignorant about pre-Marquess boxing claim that there aren't any striking similarities.

Strawman again.

I never said there aren't any striking similarities, but LSDD as defined in YMVT does not exist in any Western Boxing. To claim that VT's LSDD came from WB is to not know what LSDD is.

 

[KPM]

Hey LFJ.....rather than just arguing with Kirk, how about answering my question???

 

[geezer]

I find it even more entertaining to watch people who are obviously ignorant about pre-Marquess boxing claim that there aren't any striking similarities.

Boxing Shmoxing! I don't know squat about early bare-knuckle boxing except from old pictures ...which do look a lot like Wing Chun.

Seems like they ought to look alike ...seeing as they were both trying to accomplish pretty much the same thing. You know, parallel evolution and all...with or without actual cross fertilization.

Anyway, Kirk, I'm actually more interested in any opinion you might have the parallels between WC and thrusting sword arts in HEMA. Way back I had a brief introduction to modern fencing, and then later a chance to try some historical rapier work. I found a lot of conceptual similarities, especially using linear deflections to simultaneously defend and attack in a single movement.

Oh and BTW, that's what LFJ was referring to with LSDD. Abbreviating the Cantonese term for simultaneous defense and attack. Why he expects everybody to recognize that acronym is beyond me. No matter.
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