When the kata is applied to self defense

[JowGaWolf]

I may have learned more forms (> 50) than everybody here in this forum. If I just do each and every of my forms once a day, I won't have any time left to train anything else.

I wouldn't train every form everyday. There's just no reason to do it, because techniques repeat. I'm pretty sure that your 50+ forms doesn't have techniques that are 100% unique that don't show up in other forms. Because of this you can do a set of 10 forms on one day and another set on the other day. After you do 10 forms you'll still have time for the other training. I know far less than that and I'm not even trying to do every form every day. Like you stated before in today's society, there's just not enough time.

I want to other stuff as well. There has to be some balance. Unless you are trying to get a Professional Martial Arts Form Performance Certification (yes I know it doesn't exist) then there's just no need to give that much into something while ignore other things in life. There's more to life than just Martial Arts.

 

[Steve]

But it's a relevant question in the context of the discussion.

It was said that kata detracts from fighting skill.

Then it was said that kyokoshin produces good fighters despite it using kata.

So, if kata detracts from fighting skill there surely must be at least one instance where people who practice everything about kyokoshin minus the kata are on a yet higher level.

Or does that not require any evidence to be true?

I'm sorry. I havebt seen anyone suggest that kata makes someone a worse fighter. Only that there's no evidence it makes one a better fighter.

The only way I can think of to demonstrate that kata detracts from training is to show competent fighters become incompetent, which would be hard to do.

What is relatively easy to see are thousands of fighters who can demonstrate practical fighting skill who don't do kata. In other words, it is relatively easy (imo) to see several common traits between kyokushin karate and, say, muay Thai. You can also see that ither styles, like ninjutsu, do not share these traits.

 

[Hanzou]

A lot of the arts that traditionally fed into "mixed martial arts" were those that practiced kata/forms/patterns.

It isn't close to being "a lot".

Nowadays, it's become it's own thing.

I contacted a couple of local MMA places a few months back - I'm not allowed to play until I sign up and pay due to insurance and stuff.

So, I can't exactly take my TKD into MMA without 'doing' MMA.

Kind of no evidence at all if you ask me.

Add to that, a quick Google for "MMA taekwondo fighters" and "MMA karate fighters" and that sort of thing brings up a fair few results. Again, evidence destroyed.

I do believe that I said that they come from arts that either don't emphasize kata, or don't practice kata.

Also, MMA isn't the gold standard of everything.

Considering that MMA fighters are currently flattening traditional martial artists, I would say that it is the gold standard until something changes.

So, again, Do you know of a kyokoshin school that doesn't practice kata and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?

I'll even open it up to give you more of a chance.

Do you know of any tma school that has ditched kata and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?

Not quite, but there are examples of descendant styles producing better fighters than their parent styles. One such example would be Japanese Jiujitsu vs Brazilian Jiujitsu.

 

[pdg]

I'm sorry. I havebt seen anyone suggest that kata makes someone a worse fighter. Only that there's no evidence it makes one a better fighter

Well

there's little evidence to show that kata/forms training makes you a better fighter, and in fact the evidence appears to show that the opposite is the case

I've made the relevant bit bold for you.

 

[pdg]

What is relatively easy to see are thousands of fighters who can demonstrate practical fighting skill who don't do kata. In other words, it is relatively easy (imo) to see several common traits between kyokushin karate and, say, muay Thai.

But kyokoshin do kata.

So, those common traits simply reinforce my statement that kata or lack thereof does not define any outcome.

 

[pdg]

Considering that MMA fighters are currently flattening traditional martial artists, I would say that it is the gold standard until something changes.

But to expand on this, and where you said not many TMA people have come through MMA competition to do well...

I haven't seen or heard of a single instance where an MMA fighter has done well in a tkd competition, or a push hands challenge.

So from that, and using your specifications for good - we can conclude that MMA is not as effective as those TMA, because no MMA person has won in those circumstances.

Oh but wait, they don't train for those rules...

 

[Buka]

It is good to see schools like this begin to advertise what they teach on the web. I think it is also good to see what they teach so that I can avoid these schools like the plague.

Clearly they're applying some sort of kata to a self defense sequence. One of the reasons I've never liked this form of teaching is because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

I see women in the video, and I just shudder to think of a woman attempting this stuff against a larger person trying to take advantage of them.

This is why sparring and communicating with other styles is important. It would be great if places like this allowed a wrestler or boxer into their ranks to pressure test what they are doing. Such pressure testing would shed away the nonsense, and improve the style overall.

Like all long threads.....things get lost and new ideas morph into arguments. Let's look at hanzou's OP and what he said...

because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

I have also experienced that to be true.

He also said,

This is why sparring and communicating with other styles is important. It would be great if places like this allowed a wrestler or boxer into their ranks to pressure test what they are doing. Such pressure testing would shed away the nonsense, and improve the style overall.

I so applaud this. We have communicated with, and sparred against and alongside, so many arts. It's fantastic and helped formed what we are today. And formed so many martial friends I can't even count them.

Somehow this got turned into a threatening and anger filled debate. Threads can be funny that way sometime.

 

[Hanzou]

But kyokoshin do kata.

Which is offset by this:

 

[pdg]

Which is offset by this:

Offset by or augmented by?

Or even - is that augmented by the kata practice?

That's what I'm getting at, and you are nowhere near answering.

Probably because the answer doesn't exist.

 

[Hanzou]

But to expand on this, and where you said not many TMA people have come through MMA competition to do well...

I haven't seen or heard of a single instance where an MMA fighter has done well in a tkd competition, or a push hands challenge.

So from that, and using your specifications for good - we can conclude that MMA is not as effective as those TMA, because no MMA person has won in those circumstances.

Oh but wait, they don't train for those rules...

It isn't just MMA competitions where MMA guys are coming out on top, it's also in the challenge matches as well where the rules are agreed upon by both parties.

 

[Buka]

Which is offset by this:

I hope the guy that was testing was the guy still standing.

 

[pdg]

Somehow this got turned into a threatening and anger filled debate. Threads can be funny that way sometime.

I have no idea who might be angry

Certainly not me, I'm quite enjoying myself.

 

[Hanzou]

Offset by or augmented by?

Or even - is that augmented by the kata practice?

That's what I'm getting at, and you are nowhere near answering.

Probably because the answer doesn't exist.

Offset. Kyokushin's full-contact sparring system is different than other types of karate. They get their reputation from that sparring system, not from their kata practice. Shotokan contains pretty much the exact same forms as Kyokushin, and it certainly doesn't have the reputation that Kyokushin has.

 

[Hanzou]

I hope the guy that was testing was the guy still standing.

Nope. However, at the end you can hear his peers demanding that he get up and not give up. This guy just fought through 40 guys full contact and they're demanding that he get off his *** and stand up. That's how those crazy SOBs develop their fighting spirit.

Yeah, that's a crew I'm not messing with....

 

[pdg]

Offset. Kyokushin's full-contact sparring system is different than other types of karate. They get their reputation from that sparring system, not from their kata practice. Shotokan contains pretty much the exact same forms as Kyokushin, and it certainly doesn't have the reputation that Kyokushin has.

But that doesn't show in any way that kata practice detracts from fighting skill, which is the overriding implication of this statement:

there's little evidence to show that kata/forms training makes you a better fighter, and in fact the evidence appears to show that the opposite is the case.

What it shows is that a system can be improved from a fighting ability standpoint by putting some extra emphasis on the actual fighting part, not by subtracting a different part - which I'm not even attempting to challenge because that much I agree with.

 

[Hanzou]

But that doesn't show in any way that kata practice detracts from fighting skill, which is the overriding implication of this statement:

What it shows is that a system can be improved from a fighting ability standpoint by putting some extra emphasis on the actual fighting part, not by subtracting a different part - which I'm not even attempting to challenge because that much I agree with.

Except we've already agreed that an overemphasis on kata practice IS detrimental to fighting ability. So if a martial arts school focuses on kata/forms more than learning practical fighting skills, their fighting skill will be diminished.

Meanwhile, styles that have removed kata completely have no adverse effects.

 

[pdg]

Except we've already agreed that an overemphasis on kata practice IS detrimental to fighting ability. So if a martial arts school focuses on kata/forms more than learning practical fighting skills, their fighting skill will be diminished.

Meanwhile, styles that have removed kata completely have no adverse effects.

But overemphasis wasn't your initial argument.

You said "emphasis" and even went so far as to say they're entirely useless.

Useless and detracting by being present is what I disagree with.

I have a personal example for you - based on me.

I do TKD, and I practice patterns.

I also do (but much less) kickboxing where there are no patterns (just practiced combinations, which could be considered mini patterns but I'll disregard that).

Now, I spar with both sets of people. Generally speaking I think I look like a tkd person when sparring (I'm talking ITF btw, which is different to KKW stuff like you see on the Olympics).

I can beat some of the people from both disciplines, and others from both disciplines can beat me.

I can make bits of patterns work 'live'.

To my mind, it's more down to the artist than than the art.

 

[Hanzou]

But overemphasis wasn't your initial argument.

You were asking how kata can detract from fighting ability. Overemphasizing it is one way it can do that.

You said "emphasis" and even went so far as to say they're entirely useless.

Useless and detracting by being present is what I disagree with.

If we agree that focusing too much on kata detracts from fighting skill, and Martial Arts that don't practice kata at all suffer no adverse effects, that pretty much shows that kata practice has a potential negative impact on fighting ability.

To my mind, it's more down to the artist than than the art.

True, but how that artist is trained matters as well. If you train in bullshido for decades you'll never be as good as you could have been if you spent that time training in something legit.

 

[Steve]

But kyokoshin do kata.

So, those common traits simply reinforce my statement that kata or lack thereof does not define any outcome.

I’m sorry. I’m confused. Are you conceding that kata is a benign trait? Not harmful but not demonstrably helpful?

 

[Steve]

But that doesn't show in any way that kata practice detracts from fighting skill, which is the overriding implication of this statement:



What it shows is that a system can be improved from a fighting ability standpoint by putting some extra emphasis on the actual fighting part, not by subtracting a different part - which I'm not even attempting to challenge because that much I agree with.

Once again, I’m confused by the way you’re using “detracts.” Are you suggesting that hanzou thinks kata will make you worse at fighting?