The knee is NOT the best target for self defense

[Akira]

Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses but I've kicked someone in the knee with full force (accidently) and it had no effect. I wouldn't recommend it as an effective target. It's a lot smaller and harder then the thigh.

I've also been kicked hard in the knee and all it did was piss me off.

Knees are for kneeing people with, not for kicking at.

 

[crushing]

I've seen a couple of guys in UFC matches look like they were in some pain from repeated kicks to the side of the knee — but only a few (5% maybe?) actually threw in the towel over them, although more were a contributing factor in them losing to some other attack eventually.

But in self defense, we do not have three 3-minute rounds to deliver cumulative damage for a finish with some other technique, do we?

The guys in the UFC do quite well in defending against kicks to the knee and their MMA training and toughening programs make their knees a less vulnerable target.

Also, I don't see the knee as really being targetted so much in the UFC, but instead the area just above the knee joint. Those guys don't want the tops of their feet or shins going right into the bony part of a knee. If they were wearing shoes or boots (which is likely in a SD situation), then you may actually see the knee being targetting right in the side of the hinge.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I cannot speak for competition; the knee is not a valid target in any of the events that I have competed in.

In self defense, I have used the side kick to the knee and it worked quite well; I am still here to post.

Daniel

 

[Stac3y]

As a bullied kid, I put a few other kids down with knee kicks. They hurt. Haven't used one as an adult, but we practice them a lot.

 

[MJS]

The odds of the average guy taking the time to condition his legs I'd imagine are pretty slim, so while it may do nothing more than piss the person off, I'm sure that it caused enough pain to buy you time to do other things.

Of course this kicking the knee debate is often talked about endlessly with MMA guys, who, like so many other targets, feel that kicking there is a waste of time.

I wonder if there is some sort of medical documentation out there to show knee injuries, as a result of a kick. Of course, what I find interesting, is that the knee can be damaged in sports related injuries, it can be damaged as a result of a knee bar, yet it can't be damaged as a result of a kick??

 

[blindsage]

Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses but I've kicked someone in the knee with full force (accidently) and it had no effect. I wouldn't recommend it as an effective target. It's a lot smaller and harder then the thigh.

I've also been kicked hard in the knee and all it did was piss me off.

Knees are for kneeing people with, not for kicking at.

No, knees are for walking, damaging them interferes with that, a lot. I guess everybody else on here who has had real life experience of actually damaging an attacker's knee is just a fool, and probably a liar, then.

 

[blindsage]

The guys in the UFC do quite well in defending against kicks to the knee and their MMA training and toughening programs make their knees a less vulnerable target.

Also, I don't see the knee as really being targetted so much in the UFC, but instead the area just above the knee joint. Those guys don't want the tops of their feet or shins going right into the bony part of a knee. If they were wearing shoes or boots (which is likely in a SD situation), then you may actually see the knee being targetting right in the side of the hinge.

MMA training toughens the knee joint?! Wow, that's a new revelation to me. Can you detail some of that training?

UFC guys don't target knee because it's bad form in pretty much all kickboxing styles to do so. It's not about the bony part of the knee, it's about permanently damaging your opponent. Just like joint locks on the ground, they don't just put them on full force and snap the joint, they give the opponent a chance to tap out, otherwise it would be considered bad form, bad sportsmanship, and just plain f***** up.

 

[crushing]

MMA training toughens the knee joint?! Wow, that's a new revelation to me. Can you detail some of that training?

Nice! "new revelation". Once again, over the top. LOL!

Anyhoo, how specific do you want the stretching and strengthening excercises of the muscles that support the knee to be? A lot of them are similar to exercises people do to help them avoid injury while engaged in various physical activities, and for people that may be suffering from athritis.

Maybe all the various motion and strengthening excercises that help people avoid and/or recover from injuries are like butter on a burn, and don't really help?

Until then, we have stuff like this: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/32814.php

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The main issue that I see in this discussion is this:

One end of the spectrum is that UFC and other mma athletes train in a way as to strengthen themselves to that the knee is not as easily damaged if struck.

The other end of the spectrum is that in an SD scenario, the attacker is unlikely to have conditioned themselves in such a specialized way. In fact, I would go so far as to say that UFC and other MMA athletes are unlikely to be attacking people outside of the ring.

I am not familiar enough with MMA rules to know if knee blows are legal or not, but guarding the knee was mentioned earlier in this thread, so I suppose that it is. Once again, an attacker is unlikely to be trained to guard below his waist.

If the attacker does not go down after you strike his knee, you do something else. Same for groin shots, head shots, or any other shot. Unless you rely on a knee shot as a silver bullet that will immediately end a confrontation, your strategies are likely to be unaffected by the views presented in this discussion.

My own opinion is that strengthening a body part, whatever it is, makes it more resistant to injury, but not invulnterable to it. The knee is a viable target, but not the only target.

Daniel

 

[howard]

Several years ago I remember seeing Dan Severn suffer a fight-ending injury from a single outward kick to the front or medial side of the knee. He went right down. Within about a minute or so, his knee was swollen very badly.

In looking at his record, I think it must have been a fight against Pedro Rizzo in September 2000. I definitely remember that his opponent was Brazilian, but I couldn't remember his name.

 

[blindsage]

Nice! "new revelation". Once again, over the top. LOL!

Anyhoo, how specific do you want the stretching and strengthening excercises of the muscles that support the knee to be? A lot of them are similar to exercises people do to help them avoid injury while engaged in various physical activities, and for people that may be suffering from athritis.

Maybe all the various motion and strengthening excercises that help people avoid and/or recover from injuries are like butter on a burn, and don't really help?

Until then, we have stuff like this: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/32814.php

Yes, you are correct, there are a number of exercises that help strengthen the muscles of the knee to help prevent injury. This is generally to help prevent self injury from normal range of motion usage. If you can show me any evidence that indicates any real protection from being kicked I would apprectiate it. And yes, I would say that a younger, fit person would be less likely to be injured as the result of an impact to the knee that a senior citizen, but generally you would expect the younger, fit person to have a better resistance to all injury. This doesn't necessarily lead to a conclusion that stretching and strengthening the knee muscles is of any significant protection against a strong kick to that region. But again, show me some evidence to say otherwise and I'll be happy to change my tune.

 

[crushing]

Yes, you are correct, there are a number of exercises that help strengthen the muscles of the knee to help prevent injury. This is generally to help prevent self injury from normal range of motion usage. If you can show me any evidence that indicates any real protection from being kicked I would apprectiate it. And yes, I would say that a younger, fit person would be less likely to be injured as the result of an impact to the knee that a senior citizen, but generally you would expect the younger, fit person to have a better resistance to all injury. This doesn't necessarily lead to a conclusion that stretching and strengthening the knee muscles is of any significant protection against a strong kick to that region. But again, show me some evidence to say otherwise and I'll be happy to change my tune.

Nope, don't have anything to change your tune. It is only a guess that because exercises have been shown to help protect an individual from self injury, similar training may provide some degree of protection against injury inflicted by others. It seems reasonable to think that stronger muscles and more flexible joints, may help reduce the likelyhood of injury such as an hyperextension from a strike.

For example, take an normal average American knee. What is the minimum strike that it would take to injury that knee? If that person were to to engage in stengthening and flexibility exercises, would that knee be more likely to be able to withstand that same strike? My guess is yes, and that is what I based my comments on. It would make for an interesting study. I don't think there is any excercise that can make the knee invulnerable.

 

[Xinglu]

Against the average Joe who tends to lock his legs and fight straight legged... I'll go for the knees every day of the week and twice on sunday. A locked knee is asking to get kicked and will end the fight.

Find me an MMA guy who locks his knees and fights straight legged.

It all comes down to awareness of who you are fighting and what they are doing with their body.

 

[blindsage]

Nope, don't have anything to change your tune. It is only a guess that because exercises have been shown to help protect an individual from self injury, similar training may provide some degree of protection against injury inflicted by others. It seems reasonable to think that stronger muscles and more flexible joints, may help reduce the likelyhood of injury such as an hyperextension from a strike.

For example, take an normal average American knee. What is the minimum strike that it would take to injury that knee? If that person were to to engage in stengthening and flexibility exercises, would that knee be more likely to be able to withstand that same strike? My guess is yes, and that is what I based my comments on. It would make for an interesting study. I don't think there is any excercise that can make the knee invulnerable.

That all makes perfect sense to me. I think those exercises would make it more likely to be able to withstand the same strike. The question is by how much. I don't think it would be to any really signficant degree.

 

[BLACK LION]

I would not consider the knee a target if I was just kicking the leg... There is a potential danger if they are skilled at blocking with thier leg and you could easily catch the patella and make a bad day for your foot or shin...

I do consider the knee a viable target if I wish to destroy that legs ability to function... or temporary disable movement so I can get elsewhere... sometimes its the only ready target in a combative situation where you are caught on your knees, sitting down, on your back or stomach...
So many things can be done to the knees to disorient movement temporarily or permanently...

I would consider ankles to be a less viable target no matter what since they are structurally stronger and have more degrees of rotation... If this was brought up I would agree....

 

[Zero]

Comment: I find that even martial artists have difficulty blocking kicks below the belt. Moving the lead knee out of range is as simple as moving front leg backward to a switched stance. Moving the HIPS out of range takes considerably more movement.

How many documented or even anecdotal knee incapications can we come up with? I have always THOUGHT it is a great way to end a fight ... but I have never, in all my years of collecting anecdotes, heard of one Not a single one.

The ONLY ones that come to mind are those in movies, i.e., fiction such as "Roadhouse."

So.. anyone out there END a fight with a knee kick? Raise your hand and tell us all about it

ZDom, I have to totally disagree with you on this one. From my own experience, I have ended a competition fight with a TKO from a knee strike. It was a leg/shin attack to the opponent's outer side of knee - this region is very prone to buckling when struck with power and there is no way to build up any form of musculature around the side ligaments to a degree to offer any decent protection to strikes. I have also felt that I have markedly weakended my opponents from knee strikes in many fights - and you see this all the time in the likes of K1 by the pros.

I have also been badly injured by a side knee strike myself in kyokoshin tournament, I was able to continue the fight but it took 3 months physio before had it healed and could fight again.

You are however right regarding evading a knee strike, as aside from the above example where I came "a cropper" I have genuinely found it easy pulling back the leg and evading such strikes, in fact at times have used it as bait...but it all comes down to timing...

However, this strike is easily executed outside of punching/hand range and if executed from the front foot, given the lowness of the strike you do not loose marked centre of gravity and if experienced can defend against any shoots or take downs.

If my own anecdotes aren't good enough, see the link for a great fight stopper with a beautiful knee attack used to perfection by late, great Andy Hug:

I also think Ray Sefu went down to a side knee strike to Filho or Hug and this is on youtube. In fact, I'm not sure what K1 fights you're watching as there are plenty where Ernesto has Ended fights with a knee strike...check out youtube and maybe you will change your mind on this target.

Also IMO, a knee strike is great in street fighting and SD, you can take down an inexperienced fighter in one strike or lead into a KO head strike. Sure there are other targets but you go for the gap as always and what is presented.

 

[BLACK LION]

Lets not forget the knee is a joint that has zero degrees of rotation in every direction but the natural bend... using the correct angle and proper striking medium it is a text book target ... Knees are very strong but they are also very weak...

Knees are great targets in many ways... One important scenario in which knees are very important is when facing multiple attackers... I am fond of dumping the combatants into the legs of thier accomplices as this makes for a great strike and sure way to kill 2 birds with one stone...

I am also fond of stomping or striking to the back or side of the knee to assist in drop throws and dumps...

Knees are good for takedowns as well as I dont know how many times the opportunity comes to use the knees to assist in a dump or drop...
Legs also tend to fly up when people get dumped on the groud and the knee is often offered as a target by default...

I think its more about knowing what the knee is and what it is not... its easy to write something off if the understanding of how to use it is not available...

 

[still learning]

Hello, Once read about an attack of three guys approaching you to the front of you, coming to you...throw your body sideways into the knee areas.....catching all three..

NOT sure of this technique? .....but it has remaim on my mind for some reason....MIGHT not be a solve all technique...YET it may have a place for it!

Knees kicks..can be an inside kick (kick the knees) out ward, ..a hook kick? or inside out cresant kick...

Thighs...will also be tarket along with knees....Shins...slide down with shoes...

So many choices when...when one tarkets near the knees...

Aloha, knee pads..great for tile working..

 

[zDom]

Great discussion!

Thanks, all, for participating!

 

[BLACK LION]

Hello, Once read about an attack of three guys approaching you to the front of you, coming to you...throw your body sideways into the knee areas.....catching all three..

This is actually a good way to break both knees on a single attacker that is larger or coming at you while you are kneeling or lying down...

One drill we have simulates being put face down and having to agress an approaching threat... you do a push up and lay across the knees to lock them and drop them... acts kind like rolling a barrel into someones legs whilem they are running...

Also...the type of shoes you wear may or may not limit your striking ability... I learned from a JKD practitioner long ago that hard toe boots are king...