When the kata is applied to self defense

[Steve]

And there are a great many who do use kata.

That was my point.

Now, I have to be a bit balanced here...

If an art exclusively practices kata and never does anything remotely like sparring I can see that it wouldn't be much use in a live situation. Say me doing tkd - if I only did patterns with no work on conditioning or sparring it simply wouldn't work.

Likewise, an art could ignore kata completely, say just do mitts and pads and running about. Like taebo. Is that any better?

From previous comments, it must be because there's no kata - but I have to disagree and say it's equal.


Now go to an art that ignores kata and only does live work - I can see that's probably quicker to fight than another art that balances kata and live work.

But, it'd be very unlikely to grab my interest. I'm not in it to fight, so it wouldn't fit me.

I contend it's much faster for me to reach any effectiveness with my doing patterns (kata) mixed with other conditioning and live work, because I do it.

100% live work? I probably wouldn't turn up, so guess what?

It'll never work

For sure, there is a human element. I alluded to this in the analogy of the guy who lost over 200 lbs.

Look at it like this. from an efficiency or practical standpoint, the metric is about gains. I can build a chair with hand tools or with power tools. At the end, the chair is identical, but created in a fraction of the time using power tools. So, the argument in favor of hand tools is that there is value in the process. And this might be true. But in the end, you can't argue in favor of either process if, at the end, you don't have a chair. You can't say, "it's about the art of using hand tools...," and never produce a usable piece of furniture.

 

[drop bear]

You can, however, say with confidence that you will lose fights if you don't fight enough. It's not too much kata that is the problem. It's not enough fighting.

And the system is what defines what you train. Not training enough striking in BJJ isn't my fault.

It is silly to assume otherwise.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now go to an art that ignores kata and only does live work - I can see that's probably quicker to fight than another art that balances kata and live work.

But, it'd be very unlikely to grab my interest. I'm not in it to fight, so it wouldn't fit me.

I have not seen even one person who is 100% serious in fighting and that person is serious in form training.

You made this very clear. If you are

- not 100% in fighting, you don't mind to spend time to train form.
- 100% in fighting, you may not have time to train form.

I may have learned more forms (> 50) than everybody here in this forum. If I just do each and every of my forms once a day, I won't have any time left to train anything else.

 

[Martial D]

.

Likewise, an art could ignore kata completely, say just do mitts and pads and running about. Like taebo Boxing kickboxing, Mui Thai, BJJ or MMA, . Is that any better?

Fixed.

 

[Hanzou]

Who? Who is saying these things, now in 2018?
I'll be very very surprised if you can name more than one person. I doubt you can name anyone.

All the people who said that the Wing Chun fighter, or the Tai Chi fighter wasn't doing "real Kung Fu" after they got flattened by that mediocre MMA fighter in China.

No, it demolished the position you took and until now actively defended that only directly martial training was worthwhile.

But fine, let's stick to kata based arts can't fight because they do kata.

So you're not a fan of Kyokushin karate?
Or is the fact that they have a kata syllabus another irrelevant point?

Kyokushin doesn't focus on kata though. Kyokushin has a very heavy focus on full contact sparring and fighting, and like I said, some branches of Kyokushin have done away with kata entirely.

Again told by who? When?
You know "exactly" what is being said so you should know who said it.

And of course an old favorite:

I asked to know what you thought was unrealistic in bassai dai to get a feel for your viewpoint and everything you've said since confirms what you're answer told me: those arts are not for you.

In other words you weren't able to find any evidence that Uchi-Uke (a technique used extensively in Bassai Dai and Karate in general) was being used "everywhere" in a fight.....

That's all you really had to say.

 

[Martial D]

All the people who said that the Wing Chun fighter, or the Tai Chi fighter wasn't doing "real Kung Fu" after they got flattened by that mediocre MMA fighter in China.

I could make that argument, and use the second video in the series you posted to do it with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

100% live work? I probably wouldn't turn up, so guess what?

It'll never work

This discussion is getting clear and clear after these many posts.

If you love form training -> you don't like live work
If you love live work -> you don't like form training.

Is there a such person who train form 20 times daily and also spar 15 rounds daily? I have never seen such person exists.

So this discussion is very clear. Our time is limited. Most of the time, we just don't have the luxury to do both

 

[Martial D]

This discussion is getting clear and clear after these many posts.

If you love form training -> you don't like live work
If you love live work -> you don't like form training.

Is there a such person who train form 20 times daily and also spar 15 rounds daily?

I don't take it that far, but i do my Sui Lim Tau every morning, and do hard rounds at least a few times a week.

 

[pdg]

Fixed.

No, you didn't fix it in any way whatsoever in the slightest.

What you did there was to utterly misunderstand and misinterpret my entire point.

 

[pdg]

This discussion is getting clear and clear after these many posts.

If you love form training -> you don't like live work
If you love live work -> you don't like form training.

Is there a such person who train form 20 times daily and also spar 15 rounds daily? I have never seen such person exists.

So this discussion is very clear. Our time is limited. Most of the time, we just don't have the luxury to do both

I love pattern training, I like the precision and the interpretation.

I love live work, sparring is great fun.

I wouldn't be interested if I was told I had to choose one or the other.

 

[Hanzou]

Can you provide evidence that the production of excellent fighters is despite their use of kata?

Or maybe something like a kyokoshin school that has shed it's kata and since produced more and better fighters?

Or maybe them using kata has helped their fighters with developing balance and other control over their bodies...

The vast majority of MMA arts either don't have kata as traditionally found in classical MA, or have kata practice in the back burner.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I love pattern training, I like the precision and the interpretation.

I love live work, sparring is great fun.

I wouldn't be interested if I was told I had to choose one or the other.

I'm with you on this one. My sparring doesn't have to be Professional Fighter quality. My Forms do not have to be Gold Medal performances. I can afford to be "good enough" and enjoy both. I'm not seeking to be a "Master" or a professional martial artist.

 

[pdg]

The vast majority of MMA arts either don't have kata as traditionally found in classical MA, or have kata practice in the back burner.

That's completely skirting the questions I directly asked and in no way answers them.

I'll try again...

Do you know of a kyokoshin school that doesn't practice kata and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?

 

[Buka]

What ranks do you hold that gives you the right to be the expert and be careful what you pick to say as well jsut be careful as to date you haven't shown that you really understand things at all so pray do tell what ranks do you hold

We can't really do the "what ranks do you hold" thing. We all come from different ranking systems, organizations and peoples.

Besides, if we did, us really old F's would get all harumph, harumph.....before we started laughing and spilled our Bosco.

 

[Hanzou]

That's completely skirting the questions I directly asked and in no way answers them.

You asked for evidence. The fact that MMA is composed almost entirely of martial arts where kata isn't emphasized or even practiced IS the evidence you seek. The fact that we have yet to see any MMA fighter emerge from a traditional MA base loaded with forms practice further supports that evidence. The only one that comes close would be Machida, but even he wasn't breaking out Uchi-Ukes when he fought.

 

[Martial D]

No, you didn't fix it in any way whatsoever in the slightest.

What you did there was to utterly misunderstand and misinterpret my entire point.

Well it seems at least one other person read it the way I did. What is the hidden point then?

 

[pdg]

Well it seems at least one other person read it the way I did. What is the hidden point then?

It's not hidden.

There are 'arts' that focus entirely on 'kata' and don't demonstrably produce good fighters.

There are 'arts' that have no traditional kata at all, look a bit 'martial' to an outsider and don't demonstrably produce good fighters.

Kata or lack thereof isn't a deciding factor.

 

[pdg]

You asked for evidence. The fact that MMA is composed almost entirely of martial arts where kata isn't emphasized or even practiced IS the evidence you seek. The fact that we have yet to see any MMA fighter emerge from a traditional MA base loaded with forms practice further supports that evidence. The only one that comes close would be Machida, but even he wasn't breaking out Uchi-Ukes when he fought.

A lot of the arts that traditionally fed into "mixed martial arts" were those that practiced kata/forms/patterns.

Nowadays, it's become it's own thing.

I contacted a couple of local MMA places a few months back - I'm not allowed to play until I sign up and pay due to insurance and stuff.

So, I can't exactly take my TKD into MMA without 'doing' MMA.

Kind of no evidence at all if you ask me.

Add to that, a quick Google for "MMA taekwondo fighters" and "MMA karate fighters" and that sort of thing brings up a fair few results. Again, evidence destroyed.

Also, MMA isn't the gold standard of everything.


So, again, Do you know of a kyokoshin school that doesn't practice kata and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?

I'll even open it up to give you more of a chance.

Do you know of any tma school that has ditched kata and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?

 

[Steve]

That's completely skirting the questions I directly asked and in no way answers them.

I'll try again...

Do you know of a kyokoshin school that doesn't practice kata and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?

I appreciate your point but I think you're being overly specific and the result is specious. Kyokushin karate incorporates kata. If it didn't, it could be suggested that it is no longer kyokushin .

but the same could be said about the white gi. What if I said, "do you know of a kyokushin school that doesn't wear white gi and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?"

My answer would be the same, which is to acknowledge that the white gi is part of the style and also kind of irrelevant to the skill of the fighters.

 

[pdg]

I appreciate your point but I think you're being overly specific and the result is specious. Kyokushin karate incorporates kata. If it didn't, it could be suggested that it is no longer kyokushin .

but the same could be said about the white gi. What if I said, "do you know of a kyokushin school that doesn't wear white gi and as a result produces a higher number of better fighters?"

My answer would be the same, which is to acknowledge that the white gi is part of the style and also kind of irrelevant to the skill of the fighters.

But it's a relevant question in the context of the discussion.

It was said that kata detracts from fighting skill.

Then it was said that kyokoshin produces good fighters despite it using kata.

So, if kata detracts from fighting skill there surely must be at least one instance where people who practice everything about kyokoshin minus the kata are on a yet higher level.

Or does that not require any evidence to be true?