When Should Weapon's Training Begin?

[Dalum]

Also coming from an FMA standpoint, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. I chose 1 month. The reason behind that is even though an FMA student will be picking up a stick almost from the first day, the true training doesn't come till after a good baseline of techniques are established. This is especially evident with studnets that have had no other formal training and are getting into the arts for the first time with a form of an FMA. These fundamentals are going to take about a month or so (or eve nlonger) based on the comprehension and retention of the materials. My dad (full on Filipino, born and raised in PI) still thinks that we don't do anything except stick work and he believes it's largely impractical since it's reliant on using a stick or two. He doesn't realize that there are empty hand applications that require just as much practice as doing the motions of an armed technique. Again, this is usually learned first and draws a baseline to the rest of the FMA studies and/or career. Again, coming from a standpoint of an FMA practitioner. Sorry if it was a tad long winded.

 

[BrandiJo]

well you left alot of blanks in there, at the school i go to we start wepon training at green belt if they want to learn. So a year or less but certinaly not in a month

 

[brothershaw]

If the school is not weapon based to an extent they have all the time in the world to get to weapons if they do at all from a curriculum standpoint.
Whether that is in a students best interests is another story.

 

[Langenschwert]

My opinion is that if you're going to teach weapons, you should start right away, or at the least, very early in training. Focusing for too long on unarmed techniques can develop bad habits when weapons come into play. I've seen people with significant unarmed training try to block a sword cut in sparring with a hand or arm, which is a hard habit to break once you're used to using your arms as a first line of defence.

Weapons training, and swordsmanship in particular will hone your unarmed fighting, in that the angles you must use become so much more apparent when you've got the equivalent of a four foot ruler in your hands showing you exactly when you're wrong.

Weapons are also intrinsically less intuitive for most people. The learning curve can be pretty steep, so one might as well start early rather than late.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Steel Tiger]

Well my curriculum has weapon training starting in the third year, but bagua is essentially an unarmed art. I think it is necessary for a student to be comfortable with who they are and what they can do with their own body before adding a potential complication like weaponry. Having said that, I also think that weapon training is essential to get a full, rounded, understanding of the art.

 

[harlan]

What is more natural for a human than to pick up sticks, and stones, and use them. We are 'tool users', and given the opportunity to play can be very creative. The only practical, non-political, reasons to withhold weapons training are based on the student's character/maturity.

Voted for 'day one'.

 

[Langenschwert]

What is more natural for a human than to pick up sticks, and stones, and use them. We are 'tool users', and given the opportunity to play can be very creative. The only practical, non-political, reasons to withhold weapons training are based on the student's character/maturity.

Voted for 'day one'.

Also, weapons are a huge advantage in combat. Some that learn unarmed MA have a false sense of security when approaching weapons training or dealing with armed assailants. Weapons are incredible force multipliers, and I think that the sooner one understands how to use them, the better.

-Mark

 

[MaartenSFS]

Thought I'd put my .02 in there...

In the past it was predominantly weapons that were taught. Empty hand techniques were taught later, if at all. Even horse-riding skills were considered more important. When actually taught, it was mostly grappling (I.E. Kampfringen/Shuaijiao/Jujutsu).

The only reason more people don't have this outlook now is because of propaganda, fantasy, and sheer stupidity. Any teacher that thinks that training in weapons is unnecessary or relegates it to forms is ignorant and irresponsible. It should be brought to the forefront.

 

[tntma12]

I beleive weapons are a very important part of training. I start me weapons training with my students around the 2nd month of training.

 

[qi-tah]

As a student, i love weapons training, so much so that i'm a little suss about my enthusiam. Weapons have a bit of a status in MA training; they look cool, they feel great in yr hand, they improve yr striking power and reach immeasurably etc. In a way, i think that this could be a reason to hold off weapons training until you can display competent, instinctive and repeatable empty hand skills. I can't speak for other styles, but certainly the weapons training i've had in ba gua very much dovetail the basic footwork and empty hand techniques. In the case of the deer hook knives, it's pretty much like snapping extra spiky bits on the end of yr arms!

How long this takes is up to the student and the school i guess. I was told by my first teacher that weapons training would begin after 8-10 years of empty hand drilling and sparring. Yet at my current school, i started deer hook knife forms and apps within 2 years.

Bring on the broadsword i say!

 

[Shidoshi0153]

I think it depends on what the focus of your training is. Is it for competition, fighting, self-defense, or combat?

That said, I incorporate 'tools' as much as possible from day one. I believe one should never be unarmed.

These are the general principles that should be taken into account though:

1. There are no weapons, simply tools.
2. These tools should merely be an extension of the body
3. Most tools should only be viewed as geometric shapes with various advantages and disadvantages.

With these three concepts in mind, 'weapons' training should be no more dangerous than any unarmed techniques, and you teach the flexibility to be able to use any tool on hand at the moment.

Personally, I encourage all my students to wear a belt, carry a lighter, and carry keys with them. These are great tools that are readily applied in most self defense scenarios.

 

[Bodhisattva]

When whould weapon's training begin? By weapon's training, I don't mean empty hand defense against a weapon, but actual usage/techniques/strategy of a particular weapon...ie stick, knife, sword, staff, anything.

In order to further illustrate this question, I'll give a few examples from my training in arts that included weapons. In Shotokan one does not learn weapons until shodan. In Jujutsu one does not learn weapons until higher dan ranks. In Arnis de Mano, weapons training began the first day. In Kali, weapons training began the first day. In Tang Soo Do, weapons training began after two to three years of empty hand training.

Is there a reason that you think it should begin at the time you picked? Why is that?

Whenever the student wants to learn.

 

[terryl965]

Simple answer when your instructor says so, plan and simple told you.

 

[Blindside]

With these three concepts in mind, 'weapons' training should be no more dangerous than any unarmed techniques, and you teach the flexibility to be able to use any tool on hand at the moment.

Personally, I encourage all my students to wear a belt, carry a lighter, and carry keys with them. These are great tools that are readily applied in most self defense scenarios.

Assuming that you are recommending that they carry such things specifically for self defense purposes, why don't you recommend them to carry tools that are specifically designed for such, rather than improvised wea... tools?

Lamont

 

[ChingChuan]

Bindside, I guess that it's because it isn't really legal to carry real weapons? .

Well, today my instructor said something about this subject... He thinks that you should only learn weapons when you master the unarmed part of the art because then you'll be able to understand it and you'll be able to actually do something useful with it... Also, a weapon is an extension of your limbs and if you can't even properly use your limbs, it will be quite difficult to master a weapon.
But I guess this only applies to Pencak Silat because our jurus (kihon/kata) can be used both armed and unarmed.
So, if you first learned all 36 jurus, you could fight quite effectively without a weapon - and then you add a weapon, like the cabang (sai), teach the few techniques you need to properly use it (turning it around etc.) and sudddenly you can do 36 jurus with a cabang without too much difficulty.
If you were to put a cabang in someone's hand and teach him the jurus that way, you won't have the benefit of understanding both armed an unarmed...
Also, the jurus represent a load of principles - it's not like you learn one jurus and then you suddenly master it - it's all about being able to use all the principles and techniques of one jurus in all sorts of combinations and situations. I think you can't possibly teach that with a weapon, you'll really need to master the unarmed part first if you really want to understand your weapon and use it in your style.
I mean, I think it's fairly easy to pick up a sai and start twirling it around. But if you're a karateka and want to learn how to use it according to the principles in your art, it will be quite hard to learn that principles by using the weapon immediately - you should rather learn how to do karate first...

My teacher, however, doesn't think that you need to master all jurus before even touching a weapon... He's taught us a few basic techniques of the stick and the sai because then we'll be able to practise them and eventually, when we really start on the weapons work, we'll no be hindered by not knowing how it works at all... Still, it's not like we've got a fixed curriculum or so and there's so much to learn about the unarmed part alone, that weapons have always had a more inferior place in our training - there's just not enough time to cover it all.

So, when should one start with weaponstraining? As soon as you understand the unarmed part of the art... I'm not saying that it has to be perfect, but I think that it's quite useful when you understand how to move, block, evade etc.

I also practise Iaido and I think it's really hard to train a weapons art without a weapon . So, in that case, weaponstraining should begin on the first day - of course.

 

[ulysses_in_arabia]

I think if the right safety procedures are in place it should be started as soon as possible if weapons are a part of the MA one is studying. I believe the likelihood of a weapon being involved in a lethal encounter is just as likely for a neophyte as an expert and any familiarity may save a life.

D.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I agree with the Kali principle of teaching weapons training from the beginning....and systems like the FMA are able to integrate all the skills so that common skills used with a knife, are applicable to stick and empty hand.....it seems like a much quicker progression of total skills to have underlying unifying principles that governs all weapons, whether they be knife, stick or empty hand.

 

[tellner]

Throughout history serious martial arts - where serious means "Those guys are trying to kill me. I want to stay alive" - have focused on using the best weapons available. Sometimes that means fists which really sucks. Sometimes it means knives or clubs or guns.

If you're doing what you do for cultural, social, historical, fitness, competitive or other such reasons weapons training might never be appropriate.

If you're doing it to stay alive when unpleasant people want you to die, then weapons training will start early.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Now how did I miss this thread?

For me it is from the get go because IRT is a tool based art. Practitioners will be picking up all different kinds of tools relatively quickly from blunt, blade, firearm, chemical, etc. Serious personal protection skills like Tellner quoted above are interested in keeping people alive. Tools are very, very important in that scheme.

 

[karate-dragon]

Anything involved with self defense should be included in the curriculum right away, and then evolve and grow. Why wait for 2 years to learn some simple knife or club defenses when these are the things we might really need to know??