Weapons: Artificially added or a part of the style

[Errant108]

I'm saying you own your martial art. No one else does.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm saying you own your martial art. No one else does.

Right. I'm all for letting everyone have their own. That's what people do regardless of teacher. Things change, when you begin to teach, however.

For me, personally, I like it when things fit together and make sense, so when I add things to my practice, I try and find the best way to include it so that it bolsters everything else that I do. I've experienced the approach where seemingly random things are thrown in and taught and you just need to memorize everything that comes your way because you know you'll be held accountable for it. While one learns a lot that way, I wouldn't say its the most effective.

Chunking weapon kata into a system without understanding the connection between the weapon basics and the rest of your practice is not the most effective way to train or to teach.

 

[clfsean]

Chunking weapon kata into a system without understanding the connection between the weapon basics and the rest of your practice is not the most effective way to train or to teach.

*bolding mine*

....

or to learn....


Props.....

 

[Errant108]

You missed the part of my post where I said you have to put in the time & effort & make the connections.

 

[Makalakumu]

You missed the part of my post where I said you have to put in the time & effort & make the connections.

No, I got it. We are in agreement!

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

including Sensei Clarance Murry who is an excellent Sai pratitioner. This man made me understand the function of the weapon rather than how flashy it can look.

JIMI,
Sensei Murry is here in Detroit right now. We spent some time training a couple of days ago and just had lunch an hour ago. I mentioned this posting to him and he was happy to hear that you remembered him and spoke kindly of your experience with him. He would like to reconnect with you. Please contact me privately with your name, email address, phone number, etc. so that I can pass it on to him.

I will also look forward to getting to know you as well.

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil
[email protected]
248-444-0343
Master Penfil's Martial Arts Academy
28221 Beck Rd., Building A-8
Wixom, MI 48393

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

It's time again!!!

Those of you who are interested in Okinawan Weaponry can come and join us for our next 3 day training camp, the last weekend in August at Sensei Carbone's dojo in Northville, Michigan.

We have martial practitioners from several systems already registered from 9 different states. This will be the most diverse training camp that we have had yet.

If you are interested in participating, contact me directly to make arrangements.

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil

Master Penfil's Martial Arts Academy
28221 beck Rd., Bldg A-8
Wixom, MI 48393
[email protected]
248-444-0343

 

[SahBumNimRush]

@astrobiologist: Ah; I'd never heard of Chung Su Kim...I can see why that would cause confusion. I train at a Chun Sik Kim dojang...so that relieves me a bit. I've been training there for going on 10 years now, and never encountered anything to label it McDojang (from the teaching perspective...business models/practices are another thing). My sa bom nim in particular spends a good deal of time teaching application, once a student has mastered the basics of moving (have to try walking before you can learn what you can do with it). So I guess we don't have any issue.

I know this is a bit off topic here, but JT, who is your sah bum nim? I train under Grandmaster Sok Ho Kang (Charleston, WV). Our two schools have a long history together.. . I've competed at you alls tourney and vica versa. I haven't seen Master Bruno in a while, is he still teaching for Granmaster Chun Sik Kim?

Good to see some "locals" on here.

 

[kbarrett]

(I know this post any many other i've responded to are older posts, But I just joined and have started reading though them and replying)

I think weapons training is very important for over all martial arts training and TSD is no excerption to this rule, I do believe however that any weapon to train with you must also spar with, going though prearranged motions is not enough and it's not the same as sparring where somebody thinks and reacts to your movements, like with empty hand skills you must spar.

Ken

 

[dancingalone]

I think weapons training is very important for over all martial arts training and TSD is no excerption to this rule, I do believe however that any weapon to train with you must also spar with, going though prearranged motions is not enough and it's not the same as sparring where somebody thinks and reacts to your movements, like with empty hand skills you must spar.

I agree with this alot. Unfortunately, in my experience most students will not reach the level of skill where live sparring would be meaningful. There are all sorts of subtle 'tricks' that are applicable only when working with weapon on weapon, sometimes specific ones like bo vs. bo or sai vs. long knife - I've had only one student thus far in years of teaching where he could benefit from practicing some of those techniques.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I agree with this alot. Unfortunately, in my experience most students will not reach the level of skill where live sparring would be meaningful. There are all sorts of subtle 'tricks' that are applicable only when working with weapon on weapon, sometimes specific ones like bo vs. bo or sai vs. long knife - I've had only one student thus far in years of teaching where he could benefit from practicing some of those techniques.

I would also agree with this, however, I haven't had any of my students reach this point. I have one that is getting close though, if he doesn't leave for college before then.. .

 

[dancingalone]

I would also agree with this, however, I haven't had any of my students reach this point. I have one that is getting close though, if he doesn't leave for college before then.. .

Take care of your prodigy. It'll be a shame if students that come after him never learn any of the practical usages of kobudo for lack of teachers. Doing a few solo forms does not = practicing kobudo.

 

[Blindside]

Can I ask how often these students are practicing their weapon material? And what the training progression is? Having two experienced instructors who have never taken a student to the point of free sparring seems odd to me. I teach Kali as a primary art, and I usually have students freesparring by 6 months (padded weapons). Yes there is a training regimen to build the students so that they aren't just flailing around out there, but if they aren't practicing landing their primary attacks and defenses (you know the gross motor basic stuff) they won't ever learn to apply the more subtle stuff. The practitioner has to be able to instictively recognize posture and position of the opponent and understand what is available because of timing to ever be able to pull the more tricky material. We use a training curriculum to go from basic technique practice to randomized attacks and application, to technical sparring, to full sparring. By about one year the issues of unmatched weapons is brought into the application with the same builds, by two years they should be able to do it with non-padded training weapons.

I realize that the Kali training method is different, but I guess I am curious why there seems to be such a large disparity.

Thanks,

 

[dancingalone]

Lamont,

Kobudo simply isn't a vibrant art, as generally taught here in the US. First, it's somewhat uncommon anyway, outside of Okinawan karate circles, which itself is somewhat dwindling as a training option here. While there are a few Korean karate and taekwondo dojang that have also picked up some Okinawan weapons here and there, but it is not an organized, comprehensive effort. The bulk of weapons work these days in sport competition seem to be of the modern variety with more flash than combative meaning.

Most people who learn kobudo usually are stuck at the solo form stage. A few do manage to learn paired partner kata, but they don't deviate from the pattern. Still fewer ever really practice striking a target like a wooden post or a tree, and even fewer progress onto semi-free sparring. The learning progression is what you would expect: fundamentals & solo work in the air -> solo kata -> striking with a wooden post/other target -> paired exercises -> paired kata -> semi-free sparring -> free sparring (although I've only have run into 2 other dojo in my life that do that).

I really couldn't tell you for sure why this is. I can tell you most of my karate students have little enduring interest in kobudo (so maybe it is my teaching method). They do just the bare minimum to get by, but I can tell they'd rather be practicing something else. Perhaps they don't see learning to fight with Asian farming tools as relevant to their martial practice, despite my attempts to explain otherwise. Perhaps time comes in the picture. I only see most of my students for 3-5 hours a week at most - it would be tough to get them up to speed with weapons unless I taught it exclusively and if I did that, I would wager that I would have no students in short fashion. It's a fact that the classes and seminars I hold on kobudo are less attended than the ones I have on sparring or kata bunkai or even joint locking.

 

[kbarrett]

My students train with weapons every class, and don't start sparring with that weapon until Orange Belt Level, I feel there's no time to wait, they must start learning how spar with weapons now not later, what good dose it do for student to train with these weapons to only wait for some day to spar with them, what happen when said student runs into somebody who has a weapon and they've never experience, sparing with weapon in a safe place like the dojang, and it can't well wait to your a Black Belt again what happen between the time their a white belt and black belt, that's a long time for most styles, a student may find themselves involved with an attacker long before that time comes. (my feelings on this subject)

Ken

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

If any of you are interested in learning and training in Okinawan Kobujutsu, my Sensei, Peter Carbone is a 9th dan directly under Sensei Nakamoto, Kiichi of Okinawa.
Sensei Carbone was charged with the responsibility of spreading this system all over the USA. He is the President and Chief Instructor for "Thee Weapons Connection Society".
We now have member schools in Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida and Colorado.
All schools are welcome to join us.
In my 40 years of martial arts training I have found Sensei Carbone to be the finest instructor that I have ever trained under. We have seminars in all of the states that we have member schools in. If you are interested in participating, contact me at your convenience...

All the best to everyone for a safe, happy and healthy Holiday Season,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil