Weapons: Artificially added or a part of the style

[Montecarlodrag]

I see some people think that if Hwang Kee didn't do it, it isn't TSD or it isn't traditional.

Remeber Hwang Kee is not the first nor the only one to practice Tang Soo Do. TSD is a very old system and can't be defined only as the way Kee interpreted and taught it.
That's the reason TSD is different between countries and federations, because it has changed as the years passed.

You can't seriously expect a single person to define a complete and traditional Martial Art. Some things must be taken from here, others from there. Some masters add weapons, others contribute with empty handed techniques, etc.

I have seen TSD Black Belts which I knew they were TSD only because they had a TSD patch on their dobok. If they didn't I'd have tought they were any other MA.

Regards.

 

[Jimi]

Montecarlodrag, Although I understand your point that Kwang Kee was not all that is Tang Soo Do, I must assert that Nunchaku, Sai, Kama, and even a 3 Sectional Staff is a mis-representation if calling these weapons Tang Soo Do skills. Most of Tang Soo Do is seen as an Empty Hand Art, (Not saying that TSD practitioners can not train with Weapons from outside their art, just don't call it Tang Soo Do Weapons Skills) so those trainning nowwa days in TSD using Nunchaku, (Insert Okinawan Weapon here) are not practicing the Ancient Art of the Korean Empty Hand Weapon. Find for me the Origins of Any TSD group that uses Traditional Korean Weapons Skills (As opposed to masking Okinawan Weapons as Korean) and I will celebrate the long lost TSD weapons skills of Korea. I am not saying that Korean Arts do not have Weapons Skills, although I doubt Nunchaku, Sai, Kama are among them. How far back do you think Tang Soo Do goes? Please don't tell me a thousand years.

 

[MBuzzy]

I see some people think that if Hwang Kee didn't do it, it isn't TSD or it isn't traditional.

Remeber Hwang Kee is not the first nor the only one to practice Tang Soo Do. TSD is a very old system and can't be defined only as the way Kee interpreted and taught it.
That's the reason TSD is different between countries and federations, because it has changed as the years passed.

You can't seriously expect a single person to define a complete and traditional Martial Art. Some things must be taken from here, others from there. Some masters add weapons, others contribute with empty handed techniques, etc.

I have seen TSD Black Belts which I knew they were TSD only because they had a TSD patch on their dobok. If they didn't I'd have tought they were any other MA.

Regards.

First off, you do have to pay some homage to the man that created the style. It seems that we are talking about two different Tang Soo Do's. The first TSD is the one that Hwang Kee CREATED, as an amalgamation of chinese and japanese styles and based very loosely on things that he read in the muyedobotongji. The second Tang Soo Do is the literaly TSD. The WORDS Tang Soo Do simply translate to Karate, empty handed style, martial arts. TSD is a general term that has been used in Korean to represent any martial art - in general. This is because the translation of the Hanmun characters are the words TSD....i.e. If you write the characters for Karate in Korea, it is pronounced TSD.

If we are talking about the general TERM - the translation of the hanmun characters, then it is perfectly legal to say that TSD is 1000 years old, 2000 years old, whatever...because in THAT case, all you are saying is that Martial Arts are that old. But to say that TSD....the style that Hwang Kee created in 1945 is that old, is simply a misnomer. He took some previously know material, re-organized it, re-packaged it, and gave it a new name, which soon changed to Soo Bahk Do, to show that it is not in fact a general term...it is a specific name of the style.

True, TSD has evolved, it has changed and it has grown since 1945, but Hwang Kee laid the foundations. All martial arts must evolve, but it is simply a misnomer to say that something is "traditional TSD" if it violates the basic principles set forth by Hwang Kee.

I have to agree 100% with Jimi here, as I've said multiple times in the thread. PRACTICE WEAPONS! Everyone, please. I think it is great, and that you should. Weapons are great....but they just aren't Tang Soo Do as it was originally intended. If they were, they would be at least mentioned in some of Hwang Kee's books. They have been added, that is fine....but something still just doesn't set right with me when people use the Japanese names, teach the Japanese styles of weapons, and then call it Tang Soo Do. That is no different than opening a school, calling it a Tang Soo Do Dojang, then teaching Kali.

TSD schools are all different, some use weapons, some teach different forms, some do things differently, some look different....Things are changing. I for one am interested to see what happens in the world of TSD in the future.

 

[MBuzzy]

Now here's the ironic part...with all of that said....I happen to know that the US Soo Bahk Do Federation is beginning to incorporate bong techniques into their curriculum. Why...I'm not sure. Hwang Kee passed the style to his son, and if HC Hwang feels that bong techniques belong, that is his right. TSD will evolve. But it is still a misnomer to say that weapons were an original part of Tang Soo Do.

 

[Montecarlodrag]

I agree, weapons used in TSD today are not traditional korean weapons. But most martial arts also use weapons developed or used by pure weapons based styles, like the samurai katana.
There is nothing wrong with using weapons, many of them have no specific origin and many MA use them.

TSD was organized and structured by Hwang Kee, but the techniques used in it are very old, He didn't invent them. Much of the things we see in TSD are old okinawan or chinese or japanese.
TSD per se is a new style created by H. Kee, but the roots, history, techniques, philosophy and training methods are very old. TSD has modern parts and old parts, as any other MA.
You can't say TSD is a new MA created in 1945 and deny any ancient roots, fighting or training methods, because it isn't true. You can't also say TSD is a pure traditional style created 2000 years ago because that isn't true either. TSD is part modern, part ancient. It has evolved with time, changed names, etc.
You can't say any MA is thousands of years old, because in ancient times they didn't even use a name for a particular fighting system. All traditional MA have evolved over time. Even chinese Kung Fu can't say it's so old as a pure and consolidated system.

I can't talk for all TSD styles or schools, because even in my city they are different.
We train the hard way, old fashioned style of TSD. We do things I haven't seen in any "modern" MA.

Of course We have to give credit to Hwang Kee for his work. But we also have to think he was not the only one nor the first. He learned from others like everyone else. TSD is a legacy, a system made of old and new techniques, all structured and named by G.M. Hwang Kee, not old, not new, a mix of both.

Regards.

 

[MBuzzy]

As I've said, my biggest beef is people trying to pass this stuff off as TSD. I personally train in weapons...but I just don't understand why some people try so hard to CALL it TSD or CALL it Korean, when it obviously isn't. And to me, the #1 indicator that you are trying to pass something off as Korean or TSD that isn't....is when the schools call the weapons by Japanese names. Then do Japanese forms....What is TSD about that? What is Korean about that?

I would rather people just call weapons by their English name than the Japanese name and try to pass it off as Korean. Staff, Sword, Sickle....ok, nunchaku is kind of universal....I don't even know if there is an English name for that one! But there is a Korean name!

 

[Jimi]

The Nunchacku = stick flail weapon is also called Toyok in the Phillipines. A Rose by any other name, Korean Instructors who truly know call it Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong. I just don't agree that since Kwang Kee pulled from multiple sources (Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan) creating an empty hand system that TSD has Ancient roots,(Not as TANG SOO DO, Those roots are Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan by other names). That is like saying since kicking skills in many Martial Arts are of ancient origin and that the UFC allows kicks, that makes UFC an Ancient Art cause one of it's components is considered Ancient. I do not agree. I just do not feel that TSD encompasses weapons =IE: Nunchaku, Sai, Kama or even hooked cane. Korean Arts do have Weapons, such as Gumdo or even Hwarang Do have Korean Weapon Skills by Korean Origin. I fear my opinion is wasted on those who desire to see their art or organization as all emcompassing. Nunchacku, oh yeah we have that, Sai, oh yeah we have that. Katana, oh yeah we have that too, but I don't know the true Korean name for it so I call it by Okinawan terminology. Although my posts sound like TSD hating, I do not hate it. I started in the Okinawa Korea Karate Association & My first Instructor was Sensei Randy Wozin (Find him in an old copy of Who's Who in Karate in the 70's) he was a Black Belt in Okinawan & Korean Arts. He had some association to Kwang Kee through his own experience in TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN and my Instructor never taught us Okinawan Weapons Skills Saying they were Korean or TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN. Tang Soo Do will evolve no doubt, but because the Western Martial Arts Community has had a lot of POPULAR Weapons exchange does not make TANG SOO DO a Weapons Encompassing Art. Again these weapons that are not Korean by name or origin can be added for a more well rounded system, just recognize that these weapon skills come from somewhere other than the Tang Soo Do systems. I want evidence, show me a real 500 year old Korean Bong form and I will absolutely celebrate it. Show me any Sang Jeol Bong form more than 50 years old, I will celebrate it whole heartedly. I have respect for an Okinwawan Oar Eiku or Eku Bo Form that is approx a few hundred years old. It would be similar if someone was to state that since TSD was formed in part by Okinawan systems through Kwang Kee that this Eiku or Eku Bo is a Tang Soo Do weapons skills with Ancient origins. I hope some of you see my point.

 

[DMcHenry]

... nunchaku is kind of universal....I don't even know if there is an English name for that one!

Sure, "num-chucks"

 

[astrobiologist]

Sure, "num-chucks"

Ha ha ha...

 

[MBuzzy]

The Nunchacku = stick flail weapon is also called Toyok in the Phillipines. A Rose by any other name, Korean Instructors who truly know call it Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong. I just don't agree that since Kwang Kee pulled from multiple sources (Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan) creating an empty hand system that TSD has Ancient roots,(Not as TANG SOO DO, Those roots are Chinese, Japanese & Okinawan by other names). That is like saying since kicking skills in many Martial Arts are of ancient origin and that the UFC allows kicks, that makes UFC an Ancient Art cause one of it's components is considered Ancient. I do not agree. I just do not feel that TSD encompasses weapons =IE: Nunchaku, Sai, Kama or even hooked cane. Korean Arts do have Weapons, such as Gumdo or even Hwarang Do have Korean Weapon Skills by Korean Origin. I fear my opinion is wasted on those who desire to see their art or organization as all emcompassing. Nunchacku, oh yeah we have that, Sai, oh yeah we have that. Katana, oh yeah we have that too, but I don't know the true Korean name for it so I call it by Okinawan terminology. Although my posts sound like TSD hating, I do not hate it. I started in the Okinawa Korea Karate Association & My first Instructor was Sensei Randy Wozin (Find him in an old copy of Who's Who in Karate in the 70's) he was a Black Belt in Okinawan & Korean Arts. He had some association to Kwang Kee through his own experience in TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN and my Instructor never taught us Okinawan Weapons Skills Saying they were Korean or TANG SOO DO MOO DUK KWAN. Tang Soo Do will evolve no doubt, but because the Western Martial Arts Community has had a lot of POPULAR Weapons exchange does not make TANG SOO DO a Weapons Encompassing Art. Again these weapons that are not Korean by name or origin can be added for a more well rounded system, just recognize that these weapon skills come from somewhere other than the Tang Soo Do systems. I want evidence, show me a real 500 year old Korean Bong form and I will absolutely celebrate it. Show me any Sang Jeol Bong form more than 50 years old, I will celebrate it whole heartedly. I have respect for an Okinwawan Oar Eiku or Eku Bo Form that is approx a few hundred years old. It would be similar if someone was to state that since TSD was formed in part by Okinawan systems through Kwang Kee that this Eiku or Eku Bo is a Tang Soo Do weapons skills with Ancient origins. I hope some of you see my point.

I've seen the exact same thinking in my academic career. People take credit for things that aren't their....people want to built up their own work or style or whatever to be more than it is.

The thing is, the fact that Tang Soo Do did not originally have weapons is nothing to be embarrassed about and I don't see it as something that needs "fixed." It seems to me that most TSD orgs incorporate weapons because they are "cool." (this is personal opinion here, no offense intended to anyone) You can't teach a few forms and say that you know how to use the weapon...TO ME, if you are only going to learn a few forms - why bother? I joind Gumdo to learn the sword. Not to swing it around for a while and not to learn a few forms to look cool. To TRULY and INTIMATELY learn how to use the sword. I joing TSD to truly learn an empty handed style. I don't see why it is considered necessary to somehow improve TSD through the addition of weapons, other than to look cool.

If you're going to do it, I say do it like Isshinryu does. Start EARLY with the weapons, teach them in depth, teach applications, make them a true part of the system. But even they admit that their weapons come directly from Kobudo....and yet in TSD people try to pass them off as organically TSD.

Again, I can't say this enough, I fully support learning weapons, they are a great thing to learn. There is nothing wrong with them. Although there is also nothing wrong with TSD as Hwang Kee originally intended it. Just tell people "Hey, this is Japanese." or "Hey, we borrowed this from Hapkido." The names are only an indication.....if a school is calling it a Katana, or a bo, or a sai, or a nunchaku....well, that says it all.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

This is an old thread by now...
I will bring it back to life...

This coming weekend Sensei Peter Carbone will have his next 3 Day Weapons Training Camp in Northville, Michigan.

If you are interested in participating contact me at your earliest convenience: 248-444-0343.

Sensei Carbone is the senior most Kobujutsu instructor in the USA directly under Soke Nakamoto, Kiichi of Okinawa.

I will be going to Okinawa with Sensei Carbone, Gene and Amy Lau and a couple of other members of our association on April 23rd for 15 days of training with Soke Nakamoto and seeing Okinawa. When we return on May 5th we will begin training at the US Honbu in Northville for 3 weeks.

We will host one 3 Day Training Camp here in Northville, and another at Red Lion Karate in Red Lion, PA during the month of April.

Everyone will be welcome to participate!!!​

Soke Namakoto, Kiichi is now 83 years old. We had him here last year for the entire month of April. It was the best training that I have ever experienced in 37+ years of training.

If you are able to participate in any of these sessions you will gain great benefit from it. I hope to see all of you come together with us for these sessions.

All the best,


Sensei Jay S.Penfil

Master Penfil's Martial Artsd Academy
28221 Beck Rd., Building A-8
Wixom, MI 48393

[email protected]
248-444-0343​

 

[Jimi]

That is great! I can not afford the money or time for this, but I am jealous Train well, my respects to your Soke.

 

[Gi1]

Yes a bit far for me I'm affraid, I'm in the UK

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

That is great! I can not afford the money or time for this, but I am jealous Train well, my respects to your Soke.

Jimi,
Where are you located?

I read your posting a couple of spots before this one. In response (we are on the same page);
In my school I teach sevseral systems:
Tang Soo Jutsu (My way of teaching Tang Soo Do)
Isshinryu Karate (Okinawan system)
Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu (Japanese Aiki Ju Jutsu system)
Kobujutsu (Okinawan Weaponry-Bo, Sai, Nunchaku, Tonfa, Gusan, etc.)

I don't call anything by any other name then what is is. When I teach what ever I am teaching I make sure that my students know what system it came from and who the instructor is that taught it to me.

I hate revisionist teaching. Those who choose to take what ever they see and claim it as a part of their traditional system's curriculum is nothing more then a lie... The worst part about those who do that is that they usually have a superficial understanding at best about what they are teaching. I have seen some of these guys that will attend one seminar or pick up a video/DVD and then claim to be a "MASTER" of the given material.

I have been training in Isshinryu Karate since 1972. I have learned one Bo Kata, Tokomini No Kun. I know it well (based on how it was taught to me back in 1977), but when I started training in Kobujutsu with my stud ent and we all went to my sensei's dojo to take our first testing on Bo Basics I came out on the training floor wearing a white best, just like my students. They asked me; Sir, why are you wearing a white belt (being that I am a 7th dan). I explained that I may have a 7th dan in Tang Soo Do, but in Kobujutsu I am still a white belt, just like all of you...

When ego is removed and practitioners are ready to just train and learn, things get better for everyone involved.

Call me when you have a chance... I will look forward to the conversation.

248-444-0343


All the best,


Sensei Jay S. Penfil

 

[Jimi]

Thank you Sir, When time allows I may call or send you a PM so we can carry on a conversation. I originally trained with Sensei Randy Wozin in the early 80's, And I also trained a great deal with some of his associates in the East Coast Martial Arts Demo Team, including Sensei Clarance Murry who is an excellent Sai pratitioner. This man made me understand the function of the weapon rather than how flashy it can look. Like I have mentioned before, I trained many Kobudo weapons against a Shinai and got knuckled a great deal to understand how they function, not Ninja Turtle Movie Moves. Weapons skills can complement many emtyhand styles, just respect where they came from. I meet an Instructor of the Vietnamese Martial Arts in College Park, MD, and I interviewed with him for part time work instructing. After he saw my FMA's skills, he said "I will hire you to teach stick weapons for me, but do not cal it fillipino stick, call it Vietnam stick and say that I taught it to you." I just walked out. Did not waste my time with him after that. Just an example.

 

[Errant108]

As I've said, my biggest beef is people trying to pass this stuff off as TSD.

Dangsudo is just the Korean pronounciation of a set of Chinese characters indicating a martial art derived from Chinese practices.

Think about that.

 

[Makalakumu]

Dangsudo is just the Korean pronounciation of a set of Chinese characters indicating a martial art derived from Chinese practices.

Think about that.

Don't you think that's a little cheap? We both know where TSD comes from. I suppose if you want to throw some weapons in and call it Chinese, you could probably justify it, but that seems pretty flimsy to me.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Thank you Sir, When time allows I may call or send you a PM so we can carry on a conversation. I originally trained with Sensei Randy Wozin in the early 80's, And I also trained a great deal with some of his associates in the East Coast Martial Arts Demo Team, including Sensei Clarance Murry who is an excellent Sai pratitioner. This man made me understand the function of the weapon rather than how flashy it can look.

Among the dojo's that I train in here in Michiagn is thr dojo of GM Willie Adams. GM Adams is Sensei Murry's Isshinryu instructor. I think that Sensei Murry has 40+ years of training under GM Adams. I met him when he was in town this past year. We had a chance to discuss Bunkai, and I got to watch him train. It is easy to see when someone knows their stuff. Sensei Murrey is someone that knows his stuff. Please give him my regards when you see him again.

I will look forward to your call...


All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil

 

[Errant108]

Don't you think that's a little cheap? We both know where TSD comes from. I suppose if you want to throw some weapons in and call it Chinese, you could probably justify it, but that seems pretty flimsy to me.

Nope, I don't think that's a little cheap. I think it's extremely costly.

What it tells me is that given that all of these things are inter-related & derived from each other, through training and research, it really doesn't matter what the hell I call it or what culture it comes from.

You have to put in the time & put in the effort, the kung fu. You do not ad hoc a bunch of BS together like some kata kollector. You simplify, you pare down. You find the connections & you make the connections. You become responsible for your training rather than being beholden to some long dead culture that you may not even ethnically be a part of.

The Chinese did it.

The Okinawans did it.

The Japanese did it.

The Koreans did it.

Westerners getting hung up on ethnic identity is disingenious.

 

[Makalakumu]

Nope, I don't think that's a little cheap. I think it's extremely costly.

What it tells me is that given that all of these things are inter-related & derived from each other, through training and research, it really doesn't matter what the hell I call it or what culture it comes from.

You have to put in the time & put in the effort, the kung fu. You do not ad hoc a bunch of BS together like some kata kollector. You simplify, you pare down. You find the connections & you make the connections. You become responsible for your training rather than being beholden to some long dead culture that you may not even ethnically be a part of.

The Chinese did it.

The Okinawans did it.

The Japanese did it.

The Koreans did it.

Westerners getting hung up on ethnic identity is disingenious.

Please correct me if I incorrectly isolate your thesis. What you are basically saying is that adding elements to your training is fine because that's what all cultures do.