Montecarlodrag
Green Belt
I was not refering to anyone in particular.
What is "flippy" ?
Which Bong Hyungs do you practice?
Weapons: Artificially added or a part of the style
- Thread starter MBuzzy
- Start date
I was not refering to anyone in particular.
What is "flippy" ?
Which Bong Hyungs do you practice?
astrobiologist
Brown Belt
This thread has gotten a little off topic. But, to your response, if your school finds a place with Chung Su Kim, so be it. If you are happy with his instruction, so be it. I wish you the best in your training and in your life. My take on Chung Su Kim, having known him for so long, is very different from what he has been showing you. If he treats your school with respect, than I will be happy for you. Those of us who know him though know where his intentions lie.
Ask Kim to show you some applications from Pyung Ahn, Naihanchi, or Kong Sang Koon. If you know much about applications of TSD hyung, then you will be under-impressed. I'll leave it at that.
Back to the topic at hand. Does anyone practice Dan Gum Hyung (a knife form)? If so, do you teach applications for your knife form?
JT_the_Ninja
Black Belt
@Montecarlodrag:
(1) Flippy = twirling the bong in a showy manner (like you'd see at a demo). Not really much practical application beyond confusing your opponent before you drop your bong.
(2) I am not certain as to the origin of our bong hyung. I only know the first several (cho dan, e dan, sam dan, sa dan -- the latter I won't need until I'm a sam dan), but I've seen bong hyung o dan, and there may be one or two beyond that...maybe. The first couple are really basic...really basic. Later on there are some more complex movements, and they all have their own (often multiple) applications. We don't spar with bongs, and they are the only weapon for which we practice hyung -- they're just a complement to and extension of empty-hand techniques. If you happen to have a staff-like object nearby in a fight, it's a good idea to have some clue how to use it. As for defending, we have knife and sword defense, both of which are also adaptable (sword could be bat/pipe swinging).
(1) Flippy = twirling the bong in a showy manner (like you'd see at a demo). Not really much practical application beyond confusing your opponent before you drop your bong.
(2) I am not certain as to the origin of our bong hyung. I only know the first several (cho dan, e dan, sam dan, sa dan -- the latter I won't need until I'm a sam dan), but I've seen bong hyung o dan, and there may be one or two beyond that...maybe. The first couple are really basic...really basic. Later on there are some more complex movements, and they all have their own (often multiple) applications. We don't spar with bongs, and they are the only weapon for which we practice hyung -- they're just a complement to and extension of empty-hand techniques. If you happen to have a staff-like object nearby in a fight, it's a good idea to have some clue how to use it. As for defending, we have knife and sword defense, both of which are also adaptable (sword could be bat/pipe swinging).
astrobiologist
Brown Belt
Flippy = the unconscious jerking motion of the body while laying on the ground after getting slapped in the carotid while spinning a toothpick staff over the head and behind the back while in a fight.
JT_the_Ninja
Black Belt
@astrobiologist: Hah! That's great.
Actually, my school uses the solid-width bongs, not those tapered "toothpicks," as you called them. I personally prefer it that way.
Actually, my school uses the solid-width bongs, not those tapered "toothpicks," as you called them. I personally prefer it that way.
Montecarlodrag
Green Belt
Oh, I understand, thanks.
We use real weapons, including the knife, katana, nunchaku and bong. (of course we go easy with children and give them foam and fake weapons, we don't want anybody to get hurt)
Our bong is solid, made of strong wood. The heaviest the better, because when you practice with a heavy one, you later use a light one and is very easy (useful in tournaments).
We like to develop callous hands (sometimes is embarrasing, but is useful)
Some of us use a bong made of a wood called "mezquite" in spanish. Don't know of any translation, but is the strongest wood you can get, but it's harder and harder to find.
I personally use a 1 inch, aluminum bong, light and strong (and shiny, I can't deny my engineering background
)
The hyungs we know are:
Three Bong hyung
Five kicho Bong
There are more, but i haven't learned them yet.
We practice Dan Gum hyung. The practical applications we teach are:
*Throat cuts
*Pointed attacks to the body
*Body cuts
*double hand cuts to the body
*Vital points very vulnerable to knife attacks (not to teach students how to kill people, but how to defend themselves against this attacks and survive)
*The most important thing, we make it serious and real. We make sure everybody understand our training is not to impress anyone, that bladed weapons are no joke, and the dangers involved.
Its not much, but is enough to cover this hyung, We don't really have a profound weapons background other than TSD.
We use real weapons, including the knife, katana, nunchaku and bong. (of course we go easy with children and give them foam and fake weapons, we don't want anybody to get hurt)
Our bong is solid, made of strong wood. The heaviest the better, because when you practice with a heavy one, you later use a light one and is very easy (useful in tournaments).
We like to develop callous hands (sometimes is embarrasing, but is useful)
Some of us use a bong made of a wood called "mezquite" in spanish. Don't know of any translation, but is the strongest wood you can get, but it's harder and harder to find.
I personally use a 1 inch, aluminum bong, light and strong (and shiny, I can't deny my engineering background
)The hyungs we know are:
Three Bong hyung
Five kicho Bong
There are more, but i haven't learned them yet.
We practice Dan Gum hyung. The practical applications we teach are:
*Throat cuts
*Pointed attacks to the body
*Body cuts
*double hand cuts to the body
*Vital points very vulnerable to knife attacks (not to teach students how to kill people, but how to defend themselves against this attacks and survive)
*The most important thing, we make it serious and real. We make sure everybody understand our training is not to impress anyone, that bladed weapons are no joke, and the dangers involved.
Its not much, but is enough to cover this hyung, We don't really have a profound weapons background other than TSD.
OP
OP
Montecarlo - what organization are you with?
I'm curious how you handle "katana" or "gum?" Do you practice with mokgum or kagum? When do you allow students to handle jingum?
Actually, I'm always VERY surprised when any KMA person refers to a Katana - especially with the Korean cultural aversion to all things Japanese.
I'm curious how you handle "katana" or "gum?" Do you practice with mokgum or kagum? When do you allow students to handle jingum?
Actually, I'm always VERY surprised when any KMA person refers to a Katana - especially with the Korean cultural aversion to all things Japanese.
Montecarlodrag
Green Belt
Sad you had a bad experience.
We had several bad experiences with masters and federations too. Yet we choose not to tell everybody and burn him over the internet (by name), even if we are right.
There are different kinds of people, and our goals may not be always the same as our teachers. Many things should change, many thing shouldn't exist at all. But if we don't do anything positive to make things change, words are useless.
As someone said. "If you have nothing good to say, it's better not to say anything at all"
Nobody is the owner of the truth, and what is bad for you, may be god for somebody else. The problem may be a personal thing, who knows. But it may be only me, because I was taught to shut up and move on.
I'm not saying you are incorrect, it's even possible you are 100% correct. But who knows? I mean, it is not cool even if you're right.
Regards and back to topic.
Montecarlodrag
Green Belt
I cannot trace our lineage to a single organization.
Currently I'm a member of Pan Am TSD, but we keep the best things we learn from each organization. WTSDA, ITF, MDKSBD, Jin shim Kwan, you name it
The "gum" is practiced with fake knifes by children or youngsters (if they have the rank of course).
All adults practice with real knifes. Nothing fancy, just real kitchen knifes.
The Katana is practiced only by us, the 3 senior dan Holders, so no worry there about fake weapons.
We practice with cheap and light katanas you find in stores.
However, we have real military katanas, 100% steel and very heavy, even a little rust. Of course they are not hand forged Samurai katanas, but they are real.
We don't have any aversion to Japanese MA.
The Katana is 100% Japanese, is the finest weapon for a Martial Artist in my opinion. You could practice something similar to avoid any japanese conection, but it wouldn't be the same.
There are several 100% korean weapons, but we don't find them interesting.
Every MA has strenghts on something and has weakness on other things. All of them.
Is up to the Martial artist to learn good things here and there to complement his/her trainig, or to close his mind and pretend his MA is the best of the world.
I'm not sure what kagum, jingum or mokgum are. I think I have an idea, but could you please explain for me?
Regards.
OP
OP
Sir, thank you for your answer! Very interesting! I hope that my last response didn't come off wrong or disrespectful. None was meant. That makes much more sense being that you are from more of a "mixed" dojang. The comment about Japanese aversion only refers to the Korean culture, not to any of the Martial Artists who practice it. There are still very hard feelings, especially among the older Koreans about the atrocities done to them and their culture during the Japanese occupation. I actually find it refreshing that some Japanese is brought in - as long as it is stated as such. The thing that gives me heartburn is when weapons are imported and called Korean, when they are using Japanese names and techniques. I am a strong proponent of cross training and if the instructor is straightforward as to the lineage of the teachniques, I think it is great. Just one of my little things I guess...
Also, I have a bit of a personal interest, since I also train in Haidong Gumdo, traditional Korean sword art.
I do have to argue a bit on the point that the Katana is 100% Japanese and that there are other weapons that are 100% Korean. The NAME Katana is certainly 100% Japanese and the original forging techniques may very well have been, but Korea has a rich history of sword techniques and weapons. There are several Korean martial arts built completely around the use of the Korean sword - which incidentally looks identical to a Katana and is forged in basically the same way. If you look at the other traditional korean weapons, you will find their counterparts in Japanese arts and even in some chinese arts. There was considerable cross talk between the cultures.
As for the definition of terms - Mokgum is a wooden sword, aka Bokken; Kagum is an unsharpened practice sword, usually made of aluminum....the unsharpened steel version is called a Saegum; and a Jingum is a live blade, i.e. hardened and sharpened. Jingum is the blade that cuts through people. The others are used for practice.
Personally, I've been training in Gumdo (sword way) for about 2 years and the use of live blades is VERY restricted. Until you reach Dan rank, you aren't allowed to own one and can only use them under supervision. This is why I am so amazed when so many organizations teach a few sword forms, then give live blades to their students. Personally, I still feel a bit weird when practicing with a live blade. I won't roll with it, I won't cartwheel with it, and my spins (spinning sword, not to be "flippy," but to clean the blood off of the blade) are much slower than usual. I can't imagine learning two forms and start using the a blade.
Montecarlodrag
Green Belt
None taken buddy
Oh, thanks.
We do use some of them, but I didn't know them for their name. We call them in spanish names. I've never seen the aluminum version though
Very nice of you to share that info, thanks.
GINGERNINJA
Yellow Belt
i am a 1st dan BB , and i have always been taught weapons , bo staff , nun-chucks , short sword , long sword , knife , throwing knife , chop sticks , pretty much every M.A style weapon
( I am not to particular about specific names SORRY if that upsets anyone )
and i have never been taught any "kicky flippy jumpy stuff " ( i do like that phrase ! lol ) i have always been taught the full use of the weapon with sparring , weapons forms , i can honestly say that i have never once done a " helicopter spin " above my head or any another MOVIE style nonsense , My Master has over 50yrs of T.S.D experience , i came across a subject very similar to this post a few a weeks ago and asked my Master if weapons are / was / is original T.S.D training and Master answer was Ā YES Ā I also asked if weapons training was taught back in Korea when T.S.D was first starting , again my Master answered Ā YES Ā !
So to answer the original question I would say Ā YES Ā weapons do belong in T.S.D
And for me a very enjoyable part of the journey of T.S.D we are on !
( I am not to particular about specific names SORRY if that upsets anyone )
and i have never been taught any "kicky flippy jumpy stuff " ( i do like that phrase ! lol ) i have always been taught the full use of the weapon with sparring , weapons forms , i can honestly say that i have never once done a " helicopter spin " above my head or any another MOVIE style nonsense , My Master has over 50yrs of T.S.D experience , i came across a subject very similar to this post a few a weeks ago and asked my Master if weapons are / was / is original T.S.D training and Master answer was Ā YES Ā I also asked if weapons training was taught back in Korea when T.S.D was first starting , again my Master answered Ā YES Ā !
So to answer the original question I would say Ā YES Ā weapons do belong in T.S.D
And for me a very enjoyable part of the journey of T.S.D we are on !
OP
OP
Please don't take this the wrong way, as I mean no disrespect at all to question your instructor and I believe him/her. But I am curious as to who he trained with and where the weapons were taught. Was he under Hwang Kee at the time?
I have run in to the opposite among many older Koreans in TSD. My Korean instructor as well as his instructor both told me that Hwang Kee did not teach weapons as a part of TSD. There were weapons curriculums, but they were always kept separate from TSD.
Also, in Hwang Kee's work, there is no mention of any weapons being included in the style, including in the original kyobon and daegahm. In fact, when referring to the Mooyedobo tongji, Hwang Kee specifically refers to his translations and work on the Kwon bup chapters.
Any background or more information would be much appreciated - I am very interested in this topic as someone who studies TSD and a separate Korean weapons style (Haidong Gumdo).
GINGERNINJA
Yellow Belt
Yes no trouble at all Mbuzzy , IĀll shall ask my Master this evening, and sorry should of posted a little more info . My Masters name is Grand Master Kim Maltae I think he has been studying T.S.D since 1950 or 55 not to sure will confirm later, But if there was weapons curriculums being taught then doesnĀt that mean that there was a need for them and therefore weapons do belong in T.S.D ? So weapons were being taught in T.S.D from the start we agree on that ? so if weapons curriculums were being taught who structured the curriculums ? and what defines them as not part of TSD or part of TSD ?
A bit of hot potato this one !
A bit of hot potato this one !
OP
OP
No problem, thank you!
That is certainly the question here. As Hwang Kee originally intended it, there are no weapons in Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do (for these purposes, I use the terms interchangeably). To this day, the World Moo Duk Kwan does not incorporate any offensive weapons training. There are bong defense and tanto defense techniques however.
I can't say that I agree that TSD taught weapons from the beginning. I also can't agree that they are necessary. As for whether they are part of the curriculum and who defines that, I suppose it depends on your perspective.
If you are a "purist" or still in the Federation or World MDK, I would say that your opinion is probably that Hwang Kee, and Hwang, HC form the curriculum and dictate what is and isn't part of the style. The splintered TSD organizations will take direction from their Kwan Jangs - all of whom were originally Hwang Kee's students though. Some have gone their own way and I know for a fact that many of them do now incorporate weapons.
I would say that your organization makes the call. As to whether they belong or not...well, it solely depends how much of a purist you are and whether you believe that we should do things how Hwang Kee originally intended them or if you believe that we should evolve and move on.
I would be VERY curious to know why Hwang Kee did not include them originally though.....
Personally, I believe that weapons are an important part of Martial Arts training, but that is why I'm in Haidong Gumdo!
Tim37200
White Belt
Hello,
I'm a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do. We use weapons in our Dojang, we use the staff, escrima sticks, and the knife, but weapons training starts with staff techniques and a basic form at 1st Gup Red Belt, and then once you've been a Cho Dan for 6 months you begin learning the Escrimas. Once you reach Sam Dan you learn a knife form, but I'm not there yet.
As for the way they're taught, we have one whole 45 min. class just for weapons, and we have fighting routines for both the staff and escrima sticks, the basic Bong Hyung forms (I think there are 4? I'm not sure.) as well as the Wang Bo forms which are a little fancier, longer, and more complex. There are also 3 escrima hyungs and we do self defense against knives, staffs(plural? haha) and swords. Hai Dong Gum Do is also taught at our school, but I don't train in it. My instructor is great when it comes to weapon work because he is very open minded about it, I have learned the Nunchakus(Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong in Korean) by myself and have competed in tournaments and he has even given me pointers here and there. Others have learned the Kamas, Broadsword, 3 Sectional, etc. and have brought their previous weapon training into TSD for weapons.
I think weapons are an important part of TSD, plus, it's good to know how to defend against them.
Tang Soo!
I'm a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Tang Soo Do. We use weapons in our Dojang, we use the staff, escrima sticks, and the knife, but weapons training starts with staff techniques and a basic form at 1st Gup Red Belt, and then once you've been a Cho Dan for 6 months you begin learning the Escrimas. Once you reach Sam Dan you learn a knife form, but I'm not there yet.
As for the way they're taught, we have one whole 45 min. class just for weapons, and we have fighting routines for both the staff and escrima sticks, the basic Bong Hyung forms (I think there are 4? I'm not sure.) as well as the Wang Bo forms which are a little fancier, longer, and more complex. There are also 3 escrima hyungs and we do self defense against knives, staffs(plural? haha) and swords. Hai Dong Gum Do is also taught at our school, but I don't train in it. My instructor is great when it comes to weapon work because he is very open minded about it, I have learned the Nunchakus(Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong in Korean) by myself and have competed in tournaments and he has even given me pointers here and there. Others have learned the Kamas, Broadsword, 3 Sectional, etc. and have brought their previous weapon training into TSD for weapons.
I think weapons are an important part of TSD, plus, it's good to know how to defend against them.
Tang Soo!
Nunchaku work in TSD I believe was added unless the instructor can trace the KOREAN weapon back to a system truly teaching Sang Jeol Bong or Ee Chul Bong, but it still is not TSD. To call it Nunchaku is using a more common Okinawan term & can be misleading in my opinion. The escrima sticks, (I have trained Inosanto Kali since 1983) are abosolutely not KOREAN or TSD, especially if the insructor teaches it as structured in the FMA's= Escala 9 count striking drill & outside snake disarm (Although if using Korean termonology & training as a Koren stick weapon, then it may be Korean, cause some korean arts do use sticks, just not TSD & they don't call it Escrima) Even if the instructor teaches the Escrima sticks competently, this must have been added. Kama's= Okinawan by Name, I have issue with that. Like the Nunchaku, the Kama's use in TSD was added again unless the instructor can trace it back to a true KOREAN sickle weapon, otherwise it is not TSD or Korean. Now the 3 Sectional Staff, my god that is a chinese weapon. If someone can trace this weapon back to TSD, or even Hwarang Do or something somehow, I would be very interested, Cause DAMN! Many instructors add weapons skills to their curriculum when cross training w/ associates in the M.A. community, but I doubt that TSD had all these Weapons skills when Kwang Kee set his standard. It is so common in the states to find someone training in a Korean system working with weapons like Nunchaku, Kama, Tonfa, Escrima sticks etc...(By another arts termonlogy saying it is TSD or Korean). I personaly would not trust a TSD instructor telling me the 3 sectional staff is TSD. Especialy if the form looks very Kung Fu/Wu Shu like. It was borrowed. I do agree that someone can train in TSD and also train weapons skill from outside the TSD system, but they should not call it TSD weapons skills. Just my opinion. (And yes I have trained in Kobudo Okinwawn Weapons since 1980, so I am sensitive to the whole Korean NUNCHAKU thing.)
OP
OP
This is my feeling also. I see nothing wrong with working with weapons at all. In fact, I do myself (Haidong Gumdo), I just have a problem with working with these weapons and trying to pass them off as historically Korean while still using Japanese names and techniques.
I say that if you want to use the Japanese names, techniques, anything, that is fine, GREAT even, it enhances training. But calling it TSD is a misnomer. It is nomenclature of course, but to met at least, it is a big deal. What would happen if you walked in to an Isshinryu Dojo and asked to train in the bong or jingum, or ee chul bong? And yet it is ok to go into a TSD Dojang and ask to train in tonfa, katana, nunchaku, etc? As long as your students know that what you are teaching is not traditional TSD and it comes from somewhere else - fine by me!
I do realize that a portion of it just has to do with the common names. I myself call TSD "Karate" to people who don't know any better...and if you put up a sign saying that you teach ee cheol bong, you probably wouldn't get any response. I just believe in paying homage to the culture through the use of their words or your native language. (i.e. use either english or korean....but mixing in the Japanese without making it known specifically that you are doing it just doesn't sit right with me).
thesandman
Orange Belt
This is why it is important to understand the difference between style and system.
For instance, most of my training was TSD, Aikido, Jujitsu and Modern Arnis. These styles were taught as part of a system developed by my GrandMaster, Soke Michael Kinney.
So to me, weapons have always been a part of my martial arts but because of the Modern Arnis and Aikido, not because of the TSD.
Most people, whether they know it or not, train in a system not a pure style. Not that there's anything wrong with that, in fact it's probably better. Just that pure styles are hard to come by and generally unpleasant to train in. (as most who only teaches the pure style tends to be pretty close minded and self important)
Most of the time you're learning "insert name of instructor here"-do and they call it whatever their instructor called it based on whatever art had the most influence on them.
For instance, most of my training was TSD, Aikido, Jujitsu and Modern Arnis. These styles were taught as part of a system developed by my GrandMaster, Soke Michael Kinney.
So to me, weapons have always been a part of my martial arts but because of the Modern Arnis and Aikido, not because of the TSD.
Most people, whether they know it or not, train in a system not a pure style. Not that there's anything wrong with that, in fact it's probably better. Just that pure styles are hard to come by and generally unpleasant to train in. (as most who only teaches the pure style tends to be pretty close minded and self important)
Most of the time you're learning "insert name of instructor here"-do and they call it whatever their instructor called it based on whatever art had the most influence on them.
Yes I agree. in the original TSD MDK as taught by GM Hwang Kee and GM KU Lee I belive there is only one weapons form it is a knife form.
